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nirvana

idunno said:
Who thinks? Our soul or consciousness.We tend to identify with our mind so we tend to think we are the mind.But when you stop thinking you still remain conscious So consciousness is a separate thing from the mind.
Some say it is the soul.
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And some say that it is simply the brain which causes this illusions. There is no reason to believe that thought is required for consciousness.

Self awareness. Most of us act without self awareness. You move your body but youre not aware of it.Its automatic. Practice of self awareness when we do things is supposed to help reach a higher stage of consciousness, with practice what is unconscious will become conscious.
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I'm sorry, but what I have read and studied and understood does not mention this in any context with reaching nirvana. Perhaps I am mistaken. However, if I am not, I fail to see how this has anything to do with nirvana. Reaching nirvana is about reaching inner peace, about truely understanding your own nature and the cause of things such as suffering. It isn't about controlling every muscle in your body.
 
Taffer said:
And some say that it is simply the brain which causes this illusions. There is no reason to believe that thought is required for consciousness.

--it isnt thats what i said. Even without thought you dont lose consciousness.


I'm sorry, but what I have read and studied and understood does not mention this in any context with reaching nirvana. Perhaps I am mistaken. However, if I am not, I fail to see how this has anything to do with nirvana. Reaching nirvana is about reaching inner peace, about truely understanding your own nature and the cause of things such as suffering. It isn't about controlling every muscle in your body.
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--Well there are many ways to the same end. Inner peace can be reached through self awareness and living in the NOW. When you think, you are living in the future or in the past. Try to think about now.It`s impossible.
When you have no desire you live in the Now.
its not about controlling body. You will notice that when aware of yourself, it is difficult to be angry. Awareness disipates your anger.
 
In Buddhism, nirvana, or enlightenment, is a state of total understanding of the four noble truths, i.e. a total understanding of how desire/craving/attachment leads to suffering.
 
When I am angry, I am VERY aware of my body. Not sure how being aware of the body is supposed to control anger.
 
idunno said:
if consciousness is a physical thing then theres no nirvana because consciousness is supposed to be the soul.
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Not the way I learned it. For one thing, the concept of a "soul" as an entity that is both responsible for your uniqueness and (in most cases) survives your death is incoherent. Conflating the concepts of "consciousness" and "soul" is needlessly confusing. For another, thinking of nirvana in terms of planes of higher existence and special mental powers clouds the issue. It may help to think of nirvana in these terms:

If you grew up in a society, you presumably have learned several basic skills (such as reading, basic arithmetic, controlling your bladder, etc). Nirvana (the cessation of suffering) is a skill much like these -- you are training your brain/mind to recognize when you are attaching yourself to desire, and then training your brain/mind to not attach yourself to desire.


idunno said:
Nirvana is total counsciousness through the practice of meditation and self awareness.
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That sounds more like mindfulness than nirvana.

idunno said:
As we are, we are about 10% aware.
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Ah, that old canard. It has been thuroughly debunked.
 
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However as far as I know there is no scientific evidence of nirvana.
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i've got photographic proof!

9338454e54741ae99.jpg
 
nescafe said:
Not the way I learned it. For one thing, the concept of a "soul" as an entity that is both responsible for your uniqueness and (in most cases) survives your death is incoherent. Conflating the concepts of "consciousness" and "soul" is needlessly confusing. For another, thinking of nirvana in terms of planes of higher existence and special mental powers clouds the issue. It may help to think of nirvana in these terms:

If you grew up in a society, you presumably have learned several basic skills (such as reading, basic arithmetic, controlling your bladder, etc). Nirvana (the cessation of suffering) is a skill much like these -- you are training your brain/mind to recognize when you are attaching yourself to desire, and then training your brain/mind to not attach yourself to desire.



That sounds more like mindfulness than nirvana.


Ah, that old canard. It has been thuroughly debunked.
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i meant our unconscious mind, not the brain. I hope you know what im talking `bout?:boxedin:
 
idunno said:
the asians believe we are on earth to achieve the state of nirvana, or non-thought.
And like they claim, when people get rich they begin to get frustrated because nothing in the material world can fully satisfy them.
The alternative seems to be to seek that state of non desire called nirvana cause desire is the creator of all thought and our ego can only exist in desire.Thats why the rich suffer. However as far as I know there is no scientific evidence of this nirvana. Do you know anything on this topic?
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Didn't you used to play baseball on Lou Costello's team?:D
 
idunno said:
--Well there are many ways to the same end. Inner peace can be reached through self awareness and living in the NOW. When you think, you are living in the future or in the past. Try to think about now.It`s impossible.
When you have no desire you live in the Now.
its not about controlling body. You will notice that when aware of yourself, it is difficult to be angry. Awareness disipates your anger.
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I direct you to Ryokan, who is far more knowledgeable on this then me. He also, it seems, agrees with what I was saying. At least, in part.

Ryokan said:
In Buddhism, nirvana, or enlightenment, is a state of total understanding of the four noble truths, i.e. a total understanding of how desire/craving/attachment leads to suffering.
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There was a farmer, had a dog...
 
idunno said:
nasty remarks are quite common here.
I didnt say Nirvana was a place did I?
As for non thought it seems you never experinced that state of nirvana for a minute.
When you reach that state of serenety your mind stops simply,for a while.
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Nibbanna is a state that can only be expressed through what it is not, it is not conditioned, it is not attached.

When thought is merely thought, when emotions are merely emotions, when habits are merely habits, when sensations are merely sensations and the body is merely the body, then there is no attachment to the self. If there is no attachment to the self then there is no dhukka.(Thanks to Yrreg for the Bihaya Sutta.)

(As a neo-buddhist i would argue that the dharma does not adddress all suffering, it will not cure toothaches for example)

On the positive side nibbanna is described limitless, liberation and extinguishement of the self/suffering.

So I would argue that potentialy one could be in the state of nibbanna and still have thoughts, feelings, habits, sensations and a body. I am not sure that the buddha at any rate taught that nibbanna is a state of non-thought. I know that is not how Thich Naht Hahn describes it either.

But to all thier own path, so if non-thought frees you from attachment, that is great.
 
idunno said:
if consciousness is a physical thing then theres no nirvana because consciousness is supposed to be the soul. Nirvana is total counsciousness through the practice of meditation and self awareness. Non desire is only part of it. As we are, we are about 10% aware.
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The alleged historical buddha taught frequently that there was not soul or atman. This is part of the self that is stated to not exist in the doctrine of annatta. Nibbanna is nore than total consiousness, it is a state of freedom and non-attachment, non-judgement, etc..

The soul is not needed to follow the dharma. The buddha never taught that there needed to be a soul.

Now the Hinduva also use the word nibbanna and they believe in the atman. So perhaps a subsector of asians do believe in nibbanna and the soul, however i am not sure how that would fit on the Muslims , Christians and others that inhabit the continent of asia.
 
idunno said:
Who thinks? Our soul or consciousness.We tend to identify with our mind so we tend to think we are the mind.But when you stop thinking you still remain conscious So consciousness is a separate thing from the mind.
Some say it is the soul.

Self awareness. Most of us act without self awareness. You move your body but youre not aware of it.Its automatic. Practice of self awareness when we do things is supposed to help reach a higher stage of consciousness, with practice what is unconscious will become conscious.
Click to expand...

"If there is a seer behind the seeing then why not pluck out thine eye to see more clearly?"
Siddhartha Gautama Shakyamuni, also know as Tathagata or the buddha.

You haven't proved that conscious is sperate from the brain, you have proved that conscoiusness is not solely thought.

So any disembodied consciousness yet?
 
Dancing David said:
(As a neo-buddhist i would argue that the dharma does not adddress all suffering, it will not cure toothaches for example)
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Hello DD. Well, I have to disagree. :)

When its said that suffering ends, its because the subject who experienced the suffering is no more. What is left could be called "suffering", but without a subject who suffers. And because if this, you can argue that this state is beyond suffering (and happines of course).
 
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