Niqabs/Burka: What is free will and what is abuse?

[Skeptic Ginger]

When one is considering why people believe what they believe, indoctrination is not a red herring. it is entirely relevant.

I'm sorry but you are still missing the point. Let me try again.

Of course indoctrination is an important issue. Of course men and women are equally susceptible to religious indoctrination.

The issue here as I see it, is not the religious excuse being used to control women. The issue is the control.

The fact many women are indoctrinated into a culture that says they are worthless and owned by men has nothing to do with Islam except the fact many cultures which indoctrinate women into this kind of subservience do so under the guise of it being a religious expectation. It isn't. It is a cultural expectation.

There are a few exceptions of supposed willing converted women who profess it is religious and they willingly submit. That doesn't change the fact the reality of the veil has little to do with this small handful of women who believe it is a wonderful thing. The reality of the veil is cultural apartheid. The reality of the veil is it is a symbol of oppression of women in many cultures.

The fact men are indoctrinated to control the women in their lives is their loss. But it still remains an issue of control. Men could more easily choose to not treat the women in their lives as property. That isn't the case for the women.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Going a little far off perhaps? You're talking about the full burqa, or just the veil?

I agree for the burqa, that's mental, but the veil is not a symbol of enslavement, it can be found in alot of cultures, from our European wedding dress, to some catholic women, as well as Hindu women, gypsies and orthodox Jews (to name a few).

Could this be a cultural thing?

It's hard to consistently discuss veil, Burka, Hijab and so on in a thread such as this when someone gets pedantic and sidetracks the discussion.. I am referring to clothing associated with submissive behavior that is expected along with it. I'm certainly not referring to some kid dressed up in a halloween costume or someone who wears a lacy veil and feels sexy in it.

The problem is people like to imagine that dark eyed beauty in the movies they've seen again and again. People familiar with the documentary version or who have seen the real life version have no such image in mind.

 

[Pardalis]

So you're talking about the veil or the burka?

If you're talking about the veil, you're going to have to answer to ban the other forms of it in other cultures.

The problem is people like to imagine that dark eyed beauty in the movies they've seen again and again. People familiar with the documentary version or who have seen the real life version have no such image in mind.

Again, what garb are you talking about? Be specific. I see women wearing the hijab and the veil all the time, I have no problem with it, it can be sometimes quite stylish.

 

[I Ratant]

There's been a trainwreck of a push for a ban here recently.

The politicians pushing for it are from two camps: The genuinely mistaken and well intentioned (and, as this shows, of limited intellectual capacity and historical awareness), and the ones who see the inherent contradiction but have built their power on appearing "tough on muslims", no matter the cost to society and individuals.

It should be apparent to anyone that you can't force people to be free.

.
Get into your way-back machine and talk to Bush/Cheney, early March 2003.

 

[I Ratant]

I don't care if a Muslim woman wears a face-showing Burka. Its her choice.

Orthodox Jewish women wear skirts down below their knees and blouses that cover their elbos. Married woman cover their natural hair with a wig or kerchief.

Whether this is by force..or by choice....may just depend on each individual family.

.
The women in the FLDS all look the same.
I don't know -any- woman that wants to look like ALL the others!
Hairstyle, clothes.. the only difference is the pastel colors of the uniform.

 

[funk de fino]

What if it is a parent requiring a young teen girl to wear it?

My feeling is we should define how far a parent can go in raising a child in a cult. When should we rescue adults from cults?

This is a cult, defined as isolating someone from society in order to maintain control over their behavior. It isn't just the clothing. These women have strict 'rules' about communicating with men, and about leaving the house alone. I think it's rare you are going to find very many women wearing one of these costumes who isn't also unhealthily dominated by the men in her life, be it a husband or a father, or sometimes a brother.

I wonder how much myth there is to the Muslim woman freely choosing this clothing. We are so convinced it's no different from wearing a cross or choosing a life as a nun which is not based on men dominating women from childhood. It isn't similar except maybe in the rarest of cases.

When was the last time you travelled to a muslim country and spent time with familes there?

 

[Arcade22]

Well, whichever way you slice it, it's a form of abuse on the indigenous population and thats why they must cease from wearing those horrible clothes.

 

[ThatSoundAgain]

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Get into your way-back machine and talk to Bush/Cheney, early March 2003.

I made all the noise I could back then - I don't think they heard me from way over here...

 

[Pardalis]

Here's my take on it

the Hijab: slightly deluded, but fine with me

the Niqab: insane, unnacceptable.

the Burka: bat-**** crazy, no f'n way.

 

[GenghisKhan]

As always, you should be free to practise whatever customs you wish as long as those customs do not impose on others.

I very much agree with this attitude. Do what you like, as long as it is not illegal and as long as you don't force me to make special exceptions for you.

 

[softstuff]

I've lived in Turkey, and also whilst at university spent rather a lot of time with Muslim women in the local mosque, befriending one particular lady. Personally I was Muslim, though I consider myself now to be athiest. I still respect a lot of the beliefs they have, and found many of them to have been based in common sense, though some were somewhat outdated.

What I found both in Turkey and with the Muslim ladies I knew in the UK, was that rather than being a purely religious status symbol, a headscarf or face-veil was more about projecting a statement of modesty. This statement was made as much to other women as to men, indeed many of the men I knew just weren't bothered whether their wives/relatives wore them or not, but the ladies felt that it was both by culture and fashion what they wanted to do. My friend in the UK used to have to leave the house of her parents dressed in the western manner with her hair showing and don the burqa once she was out of their sight! Though they were both Muslim and Indian by descent, they didn't like her doing it, and they didn't feel it was progressive. She told me that she loved the feeling of freedom she got from wearing it, said that it removed her physical appearance from the foreground when dealing with people, and left them only to judge her by her words and actions. I tried it on, much to her amusement, and whilst I felt confined, I could see what she might feel about it shielding her.

I don't think this is a simple topic by any means, and I know that there are women forced by others to cover. But at the same time it's inappropriate to assume that all women who do are oppressed or are doing so for negative reasons. A lot of times it has little to do with Islam (which merely states both men and women should dress modestly), to me it's a bit like wearing gloves whilst out used to be way back when, somewhere between "the done thing" and a fashion statement for many of these women.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

When was the last time you travelled to a muslim country and spent time with familes there?

It's been a while. My parents lived in Iran before the Shaw was overthrown. And I stayed with a Muslim family for a short time in Fiji many years ago.

But I've also traveled all over the world and stayed with many families rather than in hotels. I know a lot more about oppressive cultures than people who've learned all they know about the world from their own country.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I've lived in Turkey, and also whilst at university spent rather a lot of time with Muslim women in the local mosque, befriending one particular lady. Personally I was Muslim, though I consider myself now to be athiest. I still respect a lot of the beliefs they have, and found many of them to have been based in common sense, though some were somewhat outdated.

What I found both in Turkey and with the Muslim ladies I knew in the UK, was that rather than being a purely religious status symbol, a headscarf or face-veil was more about projecting a statement of modesty. This statement was made as much to other women as to men, indeed many of the men I knew just weren't bothered whether their wives/relatives wore them or not, but the ladies felt that it was both by culture and fashion what they wanted to do. My friend in the UK used to have to leave the house of her parents dressed in the western manner with her hair showing and don the burqa once she was out of their sight! Though they were both Muslim and Indian by descent, they didn't like her doing it, and they didn't feel it was progressive. She told me that she loved the feeling of freedom she got from wearing it, said that it removed her physical appearance from the foreground when dealing with people, and left them only to judge her by her words and actions. I tried it on, much to her amusement, and whilst I felt confined, I could see what she might feel about it shielding her.

I don't think this is a simple topic by any means, and I know that there are women forced by others to cover. But at the same time it's inappropriate to assume that all women who do are oppressed or are doing so for negative reasons. A lot of times it has little to do with Islam (which merely states both men and women should dress modestly), to me it's a bit like wearing gloves whilst out used to be way back when, somewhere between "the done thing" and a fashion statement for many of these women.

Just to be clear, this is not about head scarves.

I'll also give you the fact that as a culture moves away from oppressing women, you are likely to see a gradual lifting of the veil so to speak. So in a country such as Turkey, just as in Iran before they were taken back into the dark ages by a religious/political movement, you can expect to begin to see women gaining their equality and freedom over time as the oppressive clothing shifts in the other direction. In other words during times of change everything doesn't happen all at once or in a smooth transitional order.

 

[funk de fino]

It's been a while. My parents lived in Iran before the Shaw was overthrown. And I stayed with a Muslim family for a short time in Fiji many years ago.

But I've also traveled all over the world and stayed with many families rather than in hotels. I know a lot more about oppressive cultures than people who've learned all they know about the world from their own country.

I have been to many in recent years. Supposedly repressive ones and more liberal ones. What you describe is alien to me. The only repression I have seen has been in Saudi. And its not just women being oppressed there.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have been to many in recent years. Supposedly repressive ones and more liberal ones. What you describe is alien to me. The only repression I have seen has been in Saudi. And its not just women being oppressed there.

Are you claiming these are countries that the majority of the women don't go out without their faces covered?

Or are you making the mistake of thinking I am talking about countries with predominately Muslim populations? Because the two are not the same. In addition, within countries you have oppressed women wearing full head coverings but not necessarily all women in the country being similarly oppressed.

I suspect you are probably convinced someone against oppression of women in certain cultures must just be blindly bigoted. That's just not the case. I don't see the world as black and white just because I have an opinion about extreme cultures which oppress women.

 

[softstuff]

Just to be clear, this is not about head scarves.

Which is why for example I mentioned my friend who would sneak out of the house before donning her burqa, which did include a full face veil. This was her choice, in modern day England.

Whilst I appreciate what you are saying entirely about the veil lifting as cultures modernise (much as hems rose from Victorian times in England), there are still some women who will choose to cover, and it seems important to me that while we support and encourage equality and freedom, we don't automatically suggest that all women who cover are oppressed, since for some it's a genuine and very personal choice.

 

[Mason]

I think there's a disconnect somewhere, perhaps in the lack of media escaping some countries. I see a few statements that don't mesh well with other peoples' realities, so I wonder just how informed we are as a society. I don't think Skeptigirl is talking about the relative handful of confused girls worldwide who think wearing the veil is symbolic of their religion. For those few, it is, in their misguided perspective, a symbol of religion.

I think SG is talking about those places in the world where the women wear burqas because they are hiding. If they are seen, they will be beaten or killed. If you make eye contact with them, they run away before one of the males realizes she was seen. They are posessions, their faces are not their own, it belongs to their fathers, their brothers, and then to their husbands when they are old enough to be used as a bartering chip. As any posession, it is only worth full value as long as it is pure, unused, zero mileage. If it loses value, say by talking to a male outside of the family, it may not be worth keeping.

At the very least, the owner has to show that he does protect it and keep it pure, so if word gets out that she was seen talking to someone, either that person will get beaten by the family and then the girl gets beaten, or only the girl gets beaten, depending on the influence of each family involved.

No, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't have to make sense, it's their culture and they're fine with doing what they do just because their fathers did it and their father's father did it, and to do otherwise would bring disgrace to themselves and their families. That's all the justification they need.

It's not a case of wearing a crucifix to show you're a christian. It isn't a simple undergarment for weekly prayer. It isn't trying to convince the girl at the beach to trade in her conservative one-piece for a stylish two-piece. It's a dog collar, and if you're caught without it you'll be killed.

They live in fear, behind that veil.

The women who don't understand this and run around saying "It's my choice" are doing a severe disservice to the women who can't choose, because every time they open their mouths they affect how the public views the culture that requires wearing them. Consider that the ones who can speak their opinion are the ones who have the choice, and they're the ones who make the headlines for us to discuss and form our opinions from. The ones who can't speak their opinions are the ones who will be killed for speaking out at all, on any matter whatsoever, and have no way of affecting global opinion of the matter.

Every time one of the "It's my choice" women distracts the world from the ones being beaten, it only drags out the process of fighting the opression in the areas where they have no choice.

 

[funk de fino]

Are you claiming these are countries that the majority of the women don't go out without their faces covered?

Are you making up stupid stories? It seem so. I am claiming nothing of the sort.

Or are you making the mistake of thinking I am talking about countries with predominately Muslim populations? Because the two are not the same. In addition, within countries you have oppressed women wearing full head coverings but not necessarily all women in the country being similarly oppressed.

You have oppressed and abused women in all countries who do not wear any headress. I have never met a muslim women who has told me she is forced to wear anything. I have never met a muslim women who is treated like a lower class in the home.

I suspect you are probably convinced someone against oppression of women in certain cultures must just be blindly bigoted. That's just not the case. I don't see the world as black and white just because I have an opinion about extreme cultures which oppress women.

An opinion that is un-informed can indeed be an opinion. You are all over the place. My mothers pension was different than an equivalent male employee. Is that oppression? What culture would do such a thing?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think there's a disconnect somewhere, perhaps in the lack of media escaping some countries. I see a few statements that don't mesh well with other peoples' realities, so I wonder just how informed we are as a society. I don't think Skeptigirl is talking about the relative handful of confused girls worldwide who think wearing the veil is symbolic of their religion. For those few, it is, in their misguided perspective, a symbol of religion.

I think SG is talking about those places in the world where the women wear burqas because they are hiding. If they are seen, they will be beaten or killed. If you make eye contact with them, they run away before one of the males realizes she was seen. They are posessions, their faces are not their own, it belongs to their fathers, their brothers, and then to their husbands when they are old enough to be used as a bartering chip. As any posession, it is only worth full value as long as it is pure, unused, zero mileage. If it loses value, say by talking to a male outside of the family, it may not be worth keeping.

At the very least, the owner has to show that he does protect it and keep it pure, so if word gets out that she was seen talking to someone, either that person will get beaten by the family and then the girl gets beaten, or only the girl gets beaten, depending on the influence of each family involved.

No, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't have to make sense, it's their culture and they're fine with doing what they do just because their fathers did it and their father's father did it, and to do otherwise would bring disgrace to themselves and their families. That's all the justification they need.

It's not a case of wearing a crucifix to show you're a christian. It isn't a simple undergarment for weekly prayer. It isn't trying to convince the girl at the beach to trade in her conservative one-piece for a stylish two-piece. It's a dog collar, and if you're caught without it you'll be killed.

They live in fear, behind that veil.

The women who don't understand this and run around saying "It's my choice" are doing a severe disservice to the women who can't choose, because every time they open their mouths they affect how the public views the culture that requires wearing them. Consider that the ones who can speak their opinion are the ones who have the choice, and they're the ones who make the headlines for us to discuss and form our opinions from. The ones who can't speak their opinions are the ones who will be killed for speaking out at all, on any matter whatsoever, and have no way of affecting global opinion of the matter.

Every time one of the "It's my choice" women distracts the world from the ones being beaten, it only drags out the process of fighting the opression in the areas where they have no choice.

So totally right on. This is a very clear description of how I see the issue.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...You have oppressed and abused women in all countries who do not wear any headress.

So? This doesn't make one form of abuse OK because there are different forms.

...I have never met a muslim women who has told me she is forced to wear anything. I have never met a muslim women who is treated like a lower class in the home.

You can't support this as the norm in societies where women wear full face coverings as part of the expected culture.

...An opinion that is un-informed can indeed be an opinion. You are all over the place. My mothers pension was different than an equivalent male employee. Is that oppression? What culture would do such a thing?

Prove your observations are realistic.

Here are some views that reflect mine:

Reason Magazine editorial

Meanwhile, using the language of tolerance to justify oppressive practices is a grotesque perversion of liberalism. The veiling debate is a case in point. No amount of rhetorical sleight of hand can disguise the fact that the full-face veil makes women, literally, faceless. Some Muslim women in the West may choose this garb (which is not mandated in the Koran), but their explanations often reveal an internalized misogynistic view of women as creatures whose very existence is a sexual provocation to men. What's more, their choice helps legitimize a custom that is imposed on millions of women around the world who have no choice.

Perhaps, as some say, women are the key to Islam's modernization. The West cannot impose its own solutions from the outside—but, at the very least, it can honestly confront the problem.

A graphic discussion of the treatment of women in some veil promoting cultures:

Islam, Christianity and Judaism are patriarchal, monotheistic religions and are bound by one thing - their contempt of women!

When confronted with the issue of women's plight in Muslim countries, Muslim apologists insist that their religion has been misunderstood and that Islam actually grants women certain rights. They blame tradition and tribal societies for the low status and oppression of women.

Since Islam exerts absolute power over every aspect of Muslim society, from diet to relations between the sexes, why has it failed in fourteen centuries of its existence, to eradicate injustices against half of its adherents?

They go on to discuss the successes in Turkey being the result of secular changes. I don't agree that all Islamic cultures oppress women, but the ones that still expect women to be veiled most certainly do.

So why are there so many voices claiming women like their veils and roles in oppressive cultures? Because they are just as influenced to hate Western culture as some of the men are. It's a reaction against being told your beliefs are wrong. They are welcome to defend their beliefs. I am welcome to see the mistake they are making. You are welcome to see my attitude as arrogant. I see it as not accepting the oppression of women in some cultures, regardless if they can see the position they have accepted or not.

Not too many people see it as arrogant to think physically abused women are not thinking clearly when they choose to return to their abuser. This is not different. And I did not come to hold this opinion lightly or with no recognition that the world is full of many cultures which have equal value to mine.