New USA map making the rounds

[Matabiri]

In regards to you liberals

You do realise that calling someone a liberal isn't actually an insult outside the US, don't you?

 

[easycruise]

You do realise that calling someone a liberal isn't actually an insult outside the US, don't you?

It soon will be. Recent news over the last few days...Germany unemployment rate is now at 10.5%. U.S. is at 5.5%. Case closed.

Margaret Thatcher.."Eventually, socialists run out of spending other people's money."

 

[TragicMonkey]

It soon will be. Recent news over the last few days...Germany unemployment rate is now at 10.5%. U.S. is at 5.5%. Case closed.

Margaret Thatcher.."Eventually, socialists run out of spending other people's money."

There are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to start. First, "liberal" does not equal "socialist". Second, Germany and the US are very different places. Third, is unemployment statistics the sole measure of national success or failure? Fourth, unemployment has positive side effects on an economy, too--it may suck for the unemployed, but it's good for the businesses which don't have to compete so hard or spend as much to fill vacancies. Fifth, Margaret Thatcher? The world was a very different place when she was in power---in charge of what, by American standards, is a socialist country! Sixth, don't bother saying "case closed" around here. It convinces nobody, and couldn't be further from the truth. Start an argument with shanek or get into a Palestine thread (hi, Mycroft!) and see.

 

[BPSCG]

The folks who are in the places most likely to be hit uniformly felt that Kerry was the better man.

Actually, one of the places most likely to be hit uniformly thought Bush was the better man. That place is full of uniforms, in fact - the Pentagon. Which, BTW, is located in a red state (okay, it's surrounded by a blue enclave within that red state...).

 

[jj]

My preference would be to give all those states to Canada since they lean toward gun control and socialism. They would fit in better in a country like that.

Good, let's do it.

Get on with it.

 

[Brown]

Actually, one of the places most likely to be hit uniformly thought Bush was the better man. That place is full of uniforms, in fact - the Pentagon. Which, BTW, is located in a red state (okay, it's surrounded by a blue enclave within that red state...).

It looks to me like you are mistaken. Arlington County went overwhelmingly for Kerry. In fact, Kerry got more than twice as many votes as Bush.

 

[gethane]

I actually think this map is a much better discussion topic.

Bush only had to win states by a very thin margin for the state to turn red for the electoral college. However, that really is not a very accurate way to view the opinions of the populace.

But what the heck, isn't the world so much more fun with an us vs them mentality? (that sentence was much more fun when I accidentally left out the space between an and us)

 

[DaveMc]

First, "liberal" does not equal "socialist".

There is a strong correlation between the two in the U.S.

Second, Germany and the US are very different places.

What does that mean? It's a matter of do people have a job or don't they?

Third, is unemployment statistics the sole measure of national success or failure?

I can't think of a better measure. Is the populace working or not? If not, a coup d'etat is coming soon!

 

[Chaos]

First, "liberal" does not equal "socialist".

There is a strong correlation between the two in the U.S.

Well, of one thing, American conservatives are, from a European POV, so far on the extreme right that even the vast majority of the Democrats would, at least, be considered center-right.

I suggest that you have a LONG talk with somebody who grew up in Eastern Europe, so that you actually learn what "socialist" really means.

Second, Germany and the US are very different places.

What does that mean? It's a matter of do people have a job or don't they?



We have a much different history.
We´ve seen the bad side of war, too. And, no, I don´t mean soldier coming home in plastic bags. I mean bombers destroying our cities (residential area, not just factories), and soldiers raping and pillaging.
We have also learned how to make compromises - something that seems to come very hard to... well, certain other people.
Also, we´ve have had some unfortunate encounters with mixing up church and state, and we´ve learned from that.
(Note: the above is true for practically all of Europe)

Third, is unemployment statistics the sole measure of national success or failure?

I can't think of a better measure. Is the populace working or not? If not, a coup d'etat is coming soon!

How about "inflation"? How about "GDP growth"?

 

[Nikk]

It soon will be. Recent news over the last few days...Germany unemployment rate is now at 10.5%. U.S. is at 5.5%. Case closed.

Margaret Thatcher.."Eventually, socialists run out of spending other people's money."

Well Germany has a big balance of payments surplus and the US has a huge b.o.p. deficit. As this reflects an ability to produce the goods and services others want this suggests that Germany has the more healthy economy. In addition Germany has spent eye watering amounts in transforming the infrastructure and standard of living of East Germany. This obviously reduces the amount of money available for consumption - the motor of the heavily indebted US economy. In addition the unemployment rate is much higher in the old east. If you compared like with like i.e. the US with what used to be West Germany you would get a lower unemployment figure. In addition I don't think that US employment figures take into account the eye wateringly high US imprisonment figures which forcibly take people out of the jobs market and warehouse them at state expense. Add in 2million prisoners and the US unemployment figures would rise by 1% to 1.5% vis a vis Germany.

I could go on but it is clear that it is not a case of "case closed" but rather "poster doesn't begin to grasp the nature of the problem".

 

[Chaos]

It has been estimated that Germany spent about 1.25 trillion Euros (about 1.5 to 1.6 trillion $$) on East Germany - which is roughly 75,000 Euros per person there - and the eastern economy is still in the gutter. That´s right - 100 billion $$ per year, on a budget that is a fraction of the US´s.

AFAIK unemployment in the West is about 8%*; one can only speculate about where it would be had these 1.25 trillion had not been spent at all - or had even been spent on the West. I´m not saying the re-unification should not have happened or we should have let the East remain a post-communist wasteland; I´m just suggesting that comparing unemployment figures with a country that has not been through something similar is HIGHLY misleading.

* 5% to 10%, varying from region to region; my home county is at almost exactly 8%. In the East, it´s more like 10% to 25% varying from region to region.

 

[BPSCG]

It looks to me like you are mistaken. Arlington County went overwhelmingly for Kerry. In fact, Kerry got more than twice as many votes as Bush.

No, you stated exactly the point I was making. the Pentagon (presumably full of red voters) is in Arlington, which is a blue enclave in a red state - Virginia.

 

[ManfredVonRichthoffen]

I actually think this map is a much better discussion topic.

Bush only had to win states by a very thin margin for the state to turn red for the electoral college. However, that really is not a very accurate way to view the opinions of the populace.

But what the heck, isn't the world so much more fun with an us vs them mentality? (that sentence was much more fun when I accidentally left out the space between an and us)

Fascinating map. What are the black counties?

 

[Nikk]

It has been estimated that Germany spent about 1.25 trillion Euros (about 1.5 to 1.6 trillion $$) on East Germany - which is roughly 75,000 Euros per person there - and the eastern economy is still in the gutter. That´s right - 100 billion $$ per year, on a budget that is a fraction of the US´s.

AFAIK unemployment in the West is about 8%*; one can only speculate about where it would be had these 1.25 trillion had not been spent at all - or had even been spent on the West. I´m not saying the re-unification should not have happened or we should have let the East remain a post-communist wasteland; I´m just suggesting that comparing unemployment figures with a country that has not been through something similar is HIGHLY misleading.

* 5% to 10%, varying from region to region; my home county is at almost exactly 8%. In the East, it´s more like 10% to 25% varying from region to region.

Thanks. I thought the figures were of that order.

If you allow for the number of prisoners in the US the average US employment rate is about 7% as compared to the west's 8%. Even at german welfare rates I am sure it is more expensive to house a prisoner than pay unemployment benefit.

Another point to be taken into account is the initial economic costs of harmonising the european economies so that they could join the euro. This depressed demand and hence employment . It is entirely fair to draw attention to rigidities in the german and other european economies but to focus on one economic indicator is asinine.

 

[Nikk]

Fascinating map. What are the black counties?

The people there have sold their soul to SATAN!!!!!

 

[DaveMc]

In addition I don't think that US employment figures take into account the eye wateringly high US imprisonment figures which forcibly take people out of the jobs market and warehouse them at state expense. Add in 2million prisoners and the US unemployment figures would rise by 1% to 1.5% vis a vis Germany.

I could go on but it is clear that it is not a case of "case closed" but rather "poster doesn't begin to grasp the nature of the problem".

What on earth do you mean by "Imprisonment".? Are you talking about convicted criminals? Do you actually think it is correctly proper to add them in to the figures?

 

[Nikk]

What on earth do you mean by "Imprisonment".? Are you talking about convicted criminals? Do you actually think it is correctly proper to add them in to the figures?

Yes, by imprisonment I mean people in prison. These people are normally of working age, potentially economically active, mostly male, removed from the work force and supported, however unwillingly, by the state.

As the US imprisons vastly more people than comparable countries as a proportion of population it seems worthwhile taking them into account when trying to assess what proportion of the population is in productive employment.

Otherwise one is not comparing like with like for if Germany removed a comparable number of potential job seekers and imprisoned them its rate of unemployment would immediately fall.

I would be interested to know if Germany and the US count part time workers in the same way when deciding if someone is employed. E.g. does one country count someone doing say 15 hours a week as employed, unemployed , are the hours aggregated or what. I know that when unemployment was high in the UK, the government of the day was criticised for redefining "employment" on several occasions so it would be interesting to know how comparable the figures are internationally and indeed whether different US states use the same methodology.

 

[gethane]

Fascinating map. What are the black counties?

I don't know. (ok, now I do. From the following website: "Counties shown in black represent either missing election data or a mismatch between the US Census data and the USA Today data")

Here's more info though: http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/

Thanks for taking an interest. I thought perhaps it was just more interesting to argue about German unemployment.

 

[H3LL]

I couldn't resist... It's an old gag map but good for a giggle...

Leaps for cover...

 

[BPSCG]

Yes, by imprisonment I mean people in prison. These people are normally of working age, potentially economically active,

Eeconomically active? You mean in the wealth-transfer sector of the economy?

mostly male, removed from the work force and supported, however unwillingly, by the state.

Removed from the work force...? And for what reason might they have been removed, may I ask? And of those people who were "removed from the work force", how many of them were actually in the work force, creating wealth, as opposed to transferring wealth by violence, fraud, or theft?

As the US imprisons vastly more people than comparable countries as a proportion of population

Well, what do you expect from such a backward country full of guns?

it seems worthwhile taking them into account when trying to assess what proportion of the population is in productive employment.

Again, are you suggesting that the U.S. routinely imprisons productive members of society?

Otherwise one is not comparing like with like for if Germany removed a comparable number of potential job seekers

Are you suggesting that most criminals are actively seeking employment? If so, I'd be intrigued to see what evidence you have to support this claim.

and imprisoned them its rate of unemployment would immediately fall.

Are you suggesting that since prison is so expensive, we should release the criminals and give them a stipend?