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New TWA Flight 800 film coming out

I said nothing about Stalcup in the post to which you replied.

I am attempting to get you to address the rebuttals to your claims in the order in which you made those claims. This entire thread is a debate about the findings of Stalcup and Cashill. You resurrected it by noting that Stalcup was a physicist—a point already made early on this thread. You insinuated that this qualified him to speak authoritatively on airline disasters. This too was discussed earlier in this thread. I've asked you whether you wish to attempt rehabilitate Stalcup as an expert witness or withdraw him. You didn't answer. You changed the subject. Now you're just Gish-galloping a whole bunch of stuff we've already covered at length.

Do you concede that Stalcup is not a subject-matter expert in aerospace engineering or forensic investigation? Yes or no.
Have you read this thread? Yes or no.
 
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This entire thread is a debate about the findings of Stalcup and Cashill. You resurrected it by noting that Stalcup was a physicist—a point already made early on this thread. You insinuated that this qualified him to speak authoritatively on airline disasters. This too was discussed earlier in this thread. I've asked you whether you wish to attempt rehabilitate Stalcup as an expert witness or withdraw him. You didn't answer. You changed the subject. Now you're just Gish-galloping a whole bunch of stuff we've already covered at length.

Do you concede that Stalcup is not a subject-matter expert in aerospace engineering or forensic investigation? Yes or no. Have you read this thread? Yes or no.

Is this going to be your tactic to avoid addressing the EMRTC test, to just keep asking about Stalcup? Stalcup had nothing to do with the EMRTC test--indeed, the test's designers were trying to validate the fuel-tank-explosion theory, but ended up destroying it.

Anyway, about Stalcup:

First of all, this case involves more than just aerospace engineering and forensic investigation.

Second, the two forensic pathologists who examined the bodies from the crash both reject the NTSB version and agree with Hughes, Donaldson, Stalcup et al. The pathologists appeared in the Borjesson-Stalcup documentary.

Three, Stalcup is most certainly a subject matter expert in physics, which qualifies him to discuss (1) the mythical and impossible zoom climb posited by the CIA (3,000 feet) and the NTSB (1,500 feet), (2) the movement of objects seen in the radar data, and (3) the physics of explosive forces.

Four, a number of crash investigators, missile experts, 747 pilots, and aircraft maintenance/engineering experts agree with Stalcup and reject the fuel-tank-explosion theory and the zoom climb. Without a zoom climb, there is no way to explain the 100-plus eyewitness accounts of an object streaking upward from ground/sea level and heading toward TWA 800.

By the way, here is the TWA 800 Project's reply, written with extensive input from Stalcup, to the NTSB's response to the Hughes investigative team's petition for reconsideration:

https://twa800project.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/twa800-update-report.pdf
 
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Is this going to be your tactic...

Yes. I'm going to address your points in the order you bring them up and stick with each in turn until there is some resolution before moving on. That you seem to want to forge ahead—bringing up new issues without resolving those brought up previously—is not my problem. As a prefatory question to your ongoing Gish gallop, I'm asking you whether you have read the entire thread. Have you done so?

First of all, this case involves more than just aerospace engineering and forensic investigation.

The question is not whether those are sufficient qualifications but whether those are necessary qualifications. We'll start with those, since they are the most basic. Do you concede that a credible investigation of an airliner disaster requires expertise in aerospace engineering and forensic methods?

Second, the two forensic pathologists...

Please suspend the Gish gallop.

Three, Stalcup is most certainly a subject matter expert in physics, which qualifies him to discuss (1) the mythical and impossible zoom climb posited by the CIA (3,000 feet) and the NTSB (1,500 feet), (2) the movement of objects seen in the radar data, and (3) the physics of explosive forces.

No, it does not.

I routinely employ PhD physicists at my engineering company, and these subjects are not part of their education or training. Stalcup's actual education, training, and professional experience are a matter of record. Stalcup's academic field of study was the magnetic properties of crystals. He worked for a company that designed sensors for environmental monitoring. He most lately started a company that aggregates environmental data. What part of that training and experience qualifies him as an expert in (1) the aerodynamics and structural dynamics of commercial airframes, (2) the operation of ATC radars, and (3) high-energy structural dynamics?

And since you're now attempting to vouch for him, what are your qualifications in either engineering or physics? How are you able to determine whether Stalcup is qualified as you claim?

Four, a number of crash investigators...

As I promised, we will conduct voir dire on other purported experts after we're finished with Stalcup.
 
Is this going to be your tactic to avoid addressing the EMRTC test, to just keep asking about Stalcup? Stalcup had nothing to do with the EMRTC test--indeed, the test's designers were trying to validate the fuel-tank-explosion theory, but ended up destroying it.

You're late to the party. You've been asked to do your homework as this topic has already been examined at length in this thread. If you're lazy, cool, but it doesn't reflect well on your website.




Three, Stalcup is most certainly a subject matter expert in physics, which qualifies him to discuss (1) the mythical and impossible zoom climb posited by the CIA (3,000 feet) and the NTSB (1,500 feet), (2) the movement of objects seen in the radar data, and (3) the physics of explosive forces.

And yet, somehow, he's got it wrong.

Four, a number of crash investigators, missile experts, 747 pilots, and aircraft maintenance/engineering experts agree with Stalcup and reject the fuel-tank-explosion theory and the zoom climb. Without a zoom climb, there is no way to explain the 100-plus eyewitness accounts of an object streaking upward from ground/sea level and heading toward TWA 800.

It certainly climbed.

Why hasn't Stalcup named the US Navy destroyer that fired this missile? Where are the crew of this ship? Why hasn't he tracked down the ship's crew manifest to interview them? What about the ship's log? What about the missile inventory? You do know they count those things before leaving port, and when they return, right? If a missile is unaccounted for it's a big deal, so where are the reports of a USN AA missile going missing? How has nobody in the USN has ever passed along rumors of an accidental missile launch?

These are easy questions to answer, so why do they remain unaddressed? The fact that Stalcup does not name the ship, bring forward officers and crew of the ship to tell their story, and provide the serial number of the missile suggests he's full of crap.
 
Is this going to be your tactic to avoid ...

Anyway, about Stalcup:

First of all, this case involves more than just aerospace engineering and forensic investigation.
...
...
Four, a number of crash investigators, missile experts, 747 pilots, and aircraft maintenance/engineering experts agree with Stalcup and reject the fuel-tank-explosion theory and the zoom climb. Without a zoom climb, there is no way to explain the 100-plus eyewitness accounts of an object streaking upward from ground/sea level and heading toward TWA 800.

...
https://twa800project.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/twa800-update-report.pdf

So you failed to ready the thread? Great tactic, just report SPAM/Hearsay stuff?

Wow, you have a number of crash investigators? Names? Realize it is based on hearsay?

Missile experts who are basing their claims on things they did not see. Good one, that is "super evidence". Good job.

747 pilots who did not see the event? Another great NOT evidence thing of woo.

I would go with don't operate the AC pack on the ground for extended periods without lots of fuel in the Center/Tank in question due to lots of heat. But go ahead, deny the science and evidence, go with hearsay what BS from people you can't name.

You might want to NOT the sources you use which are based on far right-wing bias, full of conspiracy theories and pseudoscience, which also use bad/poor sources.

Why do you post bad sources to back up your claims, to repost the conclusion based on BS and conspiracy theories - you seem to have figured out the Holocaust, but can't figure you 800, JFK, and RFK.

Ignore the science, go with hearsay. Don't research reflections, visual illusions, and the problems using eyewitnesses.


How many is "a number"? 1?

Plus you might want to study RADAR, learn all about RADAR, to learn why the report you posted might be BS. Study RADAR, and get back to me.
OR, you can blindly believe what the guy responsible for establishing the reconstruction area for the exterior and major components of the airplane and later assigned to supervise the Airplane Interior Documentation Group charged with reconstructing the cockpit and passenger areas of the airplane, including the cargo bays, now an expert at RADAR? Go for it.

You might know more about RADAR than that guy if you took time to study RADAR instead of studying BS conspiracy sources who are selling "soap".
 
Usually the idiots say it was a missile from a US Navy ship. Never mind there were no missile capable ships in the region and somehow an entire crew that launched a missile has kept silent about it for years.

I realize this comment was made in 2013, but even in 2013, the claim that there were no missile-capable Navy ships in the area had been refuted by information revealed in documents obtained via FOIA requests and lawsuits. Even before the FOIA-released information came to light, it was known that several witnesses saw Navy ships off the coast, and one of them was described as looking like a "battleship" (which is how your average civilian would describe a destroyer, frigate, or cruiser).

Eventually, the government was forced to admit that, yes, there had been some Navy combat ships in the area when TWA 800 went down.

A good summary of the main evidence of a missile strike on TWA 800 is presented in the lawsuit filed by the Boston law firm of Bailey and Glasser on behalf of numerous family members of victims of the crash. The lawsuit discusses misconduct on the part of some FBI and NTSB personnel. Here's the lawsuit:

Bailey and Glasser 2022 Lawsuit

And just for the record, Bailey and Glasser is a major and respected law firm whose attorneys include 27 Ivy League and Top 20 law school graduates. Bailey-Glasser has handled many major, high-profile cases in a number of areas of law, including criminal, tort, financial, energy, and corporate cases. In short, this is not some fledgling law firm that's taking on a questionable case in the hope garnering publicity.
 
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It's basically "Dr. Stalcup: The Lawsuit", seeing as he's mentioned in just about every other paragraph.

And why wouldn't "a major and respected" law firm with "27 Ivy League and Top 20 law school graduates" (and 1 Rhodes Scholar, apparently) take on a case like this, as long as its not on the face it blatantly frivolous and the clients can pony up the fees to pay them to do so?
 
Dude, that’s a plaintiff’s complaint. It’s full of nothing but assertions, not cross-examined evidence.

Unimpressive to say the least. Knowing how Navy ships (and military in general) there is no way you could keep a ship crew that launched this quiet for hours, let alone days.
 
So Mikey has gone from BS conspiracy theores about Pearl Harbor (under a different name" to 9/11 crap?
 
... there is no way to explain the 100-plus eyewitness accounts of an object streaking upward from ground/sea level and heading toward TWA 800. ...

Eyewitnesses were how far away? Was it 11 miles, to 23 miles away?

What does a 747 look like 11 miles away? 23 miles away?
 
And why wouldn't "a major and respected" law firm with "27 Ivy League and Top 20 law school graduates" (and 1 Rhodes Scholar, apparently) take on a case like this, as long as its not on the face it blatantly frivolous and the clients can pony up the fees to pay them to do so?

Believing that a Big Law firm sees you as anything other than billable hours is tantamount to believing the stripper is really in love with you.
 
I realize this comment was made in 2013, but even in 2013, the claim that there were no missile-capable Navy ships in the area had been refuted by information revealed in documents obtained via FOIA requests and lawsuits. Even before the FOIA-released information came to light, it was known that several witnesses saw Navy ships off the coast, and one of them was described as looking like a "battleship" (which is how your average civilian would describe a destroyer, frigate, or cruiser).

Eventually, the government was forced to admit that, yes, there had been some Navy combat ships in the area when TWA 800 went down.

A good summary of the main evidence of a missile strike on TWA 800 is presented in the lawsuit filed by the Boston law firm of Bailey and Glasser on behalf of numerous family members of victims of the crash. The lawsuit discusses misconduct on the part of some FBI and NTSB personnel. Here's the lawsuit:

Bailey and Glasser 2022 Lawsuit

And just for the record, Bailey and Glasser is a major and respected law firm whose attorneys include 27 Ivy League and Top 20 law school graduates. Bailey-Glasser has handled many major, high-profile cases in a number of areas of law, including criminal, tort, financial, energy, and corporate cases. In short, this is not some fledgling law firm that's taking on a questionable case in the hope garnering publicity.

No, it seems like an established law firm taking on a questionable case. For the money you see!
 
Climbing Mount Tanta

Believing that a Big Law firm sees you as anything other than billable hours is tantamount to believing the stripper is really in love with you.

Yeah? Well at least the stripper's trying.
 
Name the ships. They have names. List them, along with their GPS coordinates at the time of the crash. You said there was a FOIA release, show us. Provide the serial number of the missile while you're at it.

[Spoiler Alert: You can't]
 
Dude, that’s a plaintiff’s complaint. It’s full of nothing but assertions, not cross-examined evidence.

Lest we forget Judy Woods. Even plaintiffs who possess entirely valid and relevant credentials can turn into cranks who file lawsuits written for them by notable attorneys.

Stalcup is simply not qualified to act as any sort of subject-matter expert in this action. As nearly as I can tell, Stalcup hasn't actually held a technical job since the early 2000s. He seems to be a full-time political activist now. There's nothing inherently shameful in that, as I count political activists of various stripes among my closest friends and I agree with many of Stalcup's political positions. But if you're trying to lay a foundation for yourself as an expert in aerodynamics, structural dynamics, radar operations, and forensic engineering methods—expecting to hold engineering firms accountable for your expert opinions of their negligence—then having excited crystals with electromagnetic fields won't pass the Daubert standard for that.

When Raytheon was my customer, a number of my conversations with them revolved around what a magnet they are for crank lawsuits. They retain their own Big Law litigation firm to handle just the nut jobs. I'll check the docket later to see if they've made an entry in appearance for this suit.
 
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Cool, please explain - IN DETAIL - how the wreckage of TWA-800 matches up with the wreckage of Malaysia Airlines - 17. Should be easy. I mean, TWA-800 was used to train hundreds of NTSB investigators for over twenty years. Why is it that nobody ever saw evidence of a AA missile strike anywhere on the airframe? Why does the wreck look like the center fuel tank exploded?

Oh, and why were no missile fragments found in the fuselage, or recovered from the sea floor?

I'm a simple man, please use small words in your reply.
And where did the Mythical Missile come from?
 
I wish people knew just what a big deal it is to fire an anti-aircraft missile from a destroyer actually is. Just getting the missile from storage, transporting it to the ship, loading onto the ship, and inspecting the missile before signing off on it (obviously not in that order) creates an massive amount of paperwork, in triplicate.

Then there's the whole firing process, which in peace-time training is a long list of headaches starting with the budget, and coordinating the test launch with the other ships in the task force. There is an air-cap to make sure civilian aircraft don't fly into the designated test area which has to be in place before the test. And then everyone is alerted that a launch is imminent. It's not uncommon for sailors of neighboring vessels to take photos and videos of the launch.

With one missile test you have close to a thousand sailors who are eye-witnesses, or are aware a launch has occurred.

The Lawsuit claims Raytheon and the Navy were conducting a test. This usually entails a film crew and a P-3 Orion to record the launch from the ship, and following the missile to the target. If true, the event is on film, and video from FLIR cameras. Why was this footage not requested?

My guess, the footage doesn't exist, because no missile was fired.
 
...creates a[] massive amount of paperwork, in triplicate.

The suit alleges this was all just covered up and remains covered up despite Stalcup's heroic efforts at eking information out of the military and FBI.

There is an air-cap to make sure civilian aircraft don't fly into the designated test area which has to be in place before the test.

The suit alleges that Stalcup's FOIA requests uncovered records of live-fire exercises in May 1996 off the New Jersey coast. But he has no records of such exercises being conducted in July 1996, when TWA flight 800 crashed. As expected, he hangs most of the suit on the same claims he's been trumpeting unsuccessfully for so many years: "I have radar evidence!" and "All these witnesses said they saw a missile." It's a wash-rinse-repetition of his prior claims, sprinkled with a tidbit of new-but-irrelevant disclosure. The Navy were shooting missiles in May, so they "must" have been shooting missiles in July too, because what else explains all these witnesses who saw one?

It's not uncommon for sailors of neighboring vessels to take photos and videos of the launch.

And for contractors (wink, wink) and relatives of officers who can pull strings for them (wink, wink) to be on hand to witness the tests. You know, for quality control purposes.

Why was this footage not requested?

It likely was, since FOIA requests generally ask for "any and all" pertinent information "in whatsoever form." But it's irrelevant anyway, since he has zero documentary evidence for July from the Navy. He's very proud of having a court uphold his subpoena. But the actual evidence he got as a result is a big nothing-burger.

My guess, the footage doesn't exist, because no missile was fired.

Of course that's the parsimonious answer. But Stalcup is undeterred. He chalks up his inability to obtain information for July 1996 on the ongoing efforts of the FBI, the CIA, and the Dept. of Defense to keep him from uncovering the truth. And he cites his recent victory in subpoenaing and obtaining previously undisclosed records as proof that they're probably still hiding things. In other words, standard conspiracy-theorist rhetoric.

I showed the complaint to a friend of mine who's a part-time law professor at the University of Utah and, until recently, was an associate in a Big Law firm. He's now in-house counsel for a very large company that I used to work for. He skimmed it over a cocktail and listened to me talk about Stalcup's prior work, then rendered this opinion :—

The case is not overtly crackpot; it has documentary evidence that is facially congruent with the representations made in the complaint regarding eyewitness testimony. It pleads plausibly, although that's an exceptionally low bar. You can allege all kinds of stuff "upon information and belief" in a complaint that will be utterly destroyed during discovery or at trial. What makes this case attractive to Big Law is the crusader pseudo-plaintiff. This case was clearly brought by Stalcup; the named plaintiffs are just for Article III standing. If the motivating party is at least facially credible and has shown a prior willingness to engage in long-term billable litigation, then that's an attractive client. If it goes to trial, they'll probably lose just based on the tenuous connection between the allegedly smoking missile launcher evidence and the eyewitness testimony. But they'll have made lots of money, and that's literally all a Big Law firm cares about.
 

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