Merged New telepathy test: which number did I write ?

[dlorde]

I have given myself the explaination that it was a vivid dream that I mistook for a actual memory.

Yup, I have a couple of early memories like that, but they contain some aspects of reality that made them quite hard to discover as 'fakes'. It was only when I tried to find when one of them had happened that I discovered I'd conflated two different real locations and times into a fictitious narrative comprising both real and fictitious events - probably in a dream.

I too have recurring dreamscapes, particularly involving buildings, including at least three different houses I've never seen in waking life, although they have some elements of places I've lived. I've lived in more places in my dreams than in waking life.

All of which leads me to wonder how we can distinguish dream memories from real ones. I haven't got much past feasibility, coherence, and consistency - which gives mundane dream memories every chance of being taken for real...

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Michel - wouldn't you like to feel safe and secure in the world? Wouldn't you like to feel like nobody is lying to you? Wouldn't it be great if nobody were trying to hurt you or trying to get you to hurt yourself?

You can have all of that. All you have to do is ask your family for help.

Reading his previous comments, I think he's been offered help by family members but disregarded it.

 

[turingtest]

Michel - wouldn't you like to feel safe and secure in the world? Wouldn't you like to feel like nobody is lying to you? Wouldn't it be great if nobody were trying to hurt you or trying to get you to hurt yourself?

You can have all of that. All you have to do is ask your family for help.

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think Michel will ever ask for something that he can never realize he needs or ever admit might help. He's fortified his loop beyond any possibility of that; it seems that his delusions are what make him feel safe and secure. His refuge isn't a choice, it's a condition.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... I have already talked about my impressions of telepathy several times with my mother. In 1991, she told me that "people could read in my thoughts, but that I should behave as if this phenomenon did not exist". A few years later, she said that she retracted what she had said. And now, she's saying that she never said such things.

The way you recall that 1991 conversation implies that your mother believed that everyone could hear your thoughts but later retracted. Naturally I doubt that is true. I suspect she never believed any such thing but you misinterpreted what she said, so it's no surprise she later denied saying so. I suspect your condition made you misunderstand exactly what she originally meant or made you mis-remember it.

She has also applied pressure several times to have me take anti-psychotic "medications".

That's hardly surprising, is it?

You hear hostile voices in your head. Aren't antipsychotics exactly the sort of treatment used to help stop the hostile voices some people hear? So your mother has pressed you to try the medications used to treat the symptoms you display. That sounds logical, reasonable, practical and caring.

It's not clear what she could do to stop the mysterious voices who tell me to kill myself, who ask me when I am going to kill myself and so on...
Perhaps she doesn't want to stop them, it's possible that she enjoys them, and that she secretly hopes that I will finally be assassinated by the voices (like you perhaps). She once said "these people are mean" (about the voices), but that was a long time ago.

It's amazing that you refuse to see that your mother's urging you to take antipsychotic medication is the very best thing she could possibly do to help stop your mysterious voices. If she didn't want to stop them, she would not urge you to begin treatment.

 

[Michel H]

The way you recall that 1991 conversation implies that your mother believed that everyone could hear your thoughts but later retracted. Naturally I doubt that is true. I suspect she never believed any such thing but you misinterpreted what she said, so it's no surprise she later denied saying so. I suspect your condition made you misunderstand exactly what she originally meant or made you mis-remember it.
...

I wrote down quickly what my mother said in 1991 on a sheet of paper (that I still have, I just looked at it), so a possibility that I don't remember well after 23 years can be ruled out. On this piece of paper, it is also written that she told me in 1995: "Do you have the impression that people are all crazy?" I had almost forgotten this.
It seems very hard to you to believe that my mother may have said such a thing (that people could "read in my thoughts"). But what she said then was fairly analogous to what your moderator Loss Leader said a little more than a year ago:

I am seeing a 4 very clearly. It's almost as though I had written it myself.

Of course, you don't like this statement by Loss Leader, and you don't like to ask yourself why a moderator on an important educational forum may have said such a thing. So, you invent some baseless pretext to dismiss it ("it was a joke"), and you prefer to come back once again with your nasty theories, and explain once again to me that I am a deluded and mentally ill individual. This is the theory that you like to favor because it makes you feel important and superior. I do not observe much open-mindedness from you.

In 2002, I did many telepathy tests on the phone, with people I had recruited through ads in newspapers, and all (perhaps 7 or 8) confirmed that I had a special tendency to communicate my thoughts to others. I frequently observe reactions to my thoughts or to things that I say softly (with a low volume) in my home from car and ambulance drivers, dogs and birds. I can also apparently communicate through telepathy with my mysterious voices, I assume these people are real human beings, different from me.

 

[Donn]

.. she told me in 1995: "Do you have the impression that people are all crazy?"

She was asking you why you feel like everyone disagrees with you.

She is worried about your mind.

Please contact her and say, "Help me mom."

She will.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I wrote down quickly what my mother said in 1991 on a sheet of paper (that I still have, I just looked at it), so a possibility that I don't remember well after 23 years can be ruled out. On this piece of paper, it is also written that she told me in 1995: "Do you have the impression that people are all crazy?" I had almost forgotten this.

Fair enough, you wrote it down. That's curious though. Do you write down all conversations you have?

It seems very hard to you to believe that my mother may have said such a thing.

It seemed more likely to me she something more like "even if people could hear your thoughts...", rather than agree that they really do, particularly since she later denied your interpretation. But that's just my opinion. I certainly don't expect you to believe it.

But what she said then was fairly analogous to what your moderator Loss Leader said a little more than a year ago:

Of course, you don't like this statement by Loss Leader, and you don't like to ask yourself why a moderator on an important educational forum may have said such a thing. So, you invent some baseless pretext to dismiss it ("it was a joke")

Firstly, what's with the "your moderator"? The moderators are as much yours as they are mine or anyone else's. Secondly, it really was just a joke. You are however correct that I didn't like it, for the same reason I don't like it every time anyone jokes with you: because you don't realise they are joking.

... and you prefer to come back once again with your nasty theories, and explain once again to me that I am a deluded and mentally ill individual. This is the theory that you like to favor because it makes you feel important and superior. I do not observe much open-mindedness from you.

I'm sorry if you think it's nasty of me to point out that you appear to display glaringly obvious signs of a particular condition, but even if you can't believe me, I don't mean to cause you any distress nor to feel "superior". As regards open mindedness, I know I can immediately reject one possibility (that everyone hears your thoughts) because I know for a fact that I do not.

In 2002, I did many telepathy tests on the phone, with people I had recruited through ads in newspapers, and all (perhaps 7 or 8) confirmed that I had a special tendency to communicate my thoughts to others.

There's always the possibility that that's the sort of report one gets from a self-selected group of telepathy testers.

I frequently observe reactions to my thoughts or to things that I say softly (with a low volume) in my home from car and ambulance drivers, dogs and birds.

As you might expect, I presume you only convince yourself this is really happening.

I can also apparently communicate through telepathy with my mysterious voices, I assume these people are real human beings, different from me.

And again, I presume they are not. I wish you only the best Michel and I hope you can become free of the strange experiences you are burdened by.

 

[SezMe]

I wrote down quickly what my mother said in 1991 on a sheet of paper (that I still have, I just looked at it), so a possibility that I don't remember well after 23 years can be ruled out. On this piece of paper, it is also written that she told me in 1995: "Do you have the impression that people are all crazy?"

Do you keep a journal of all of your conversations? If not, why did you record just these two snippets of conversations? Why have you kept this particular piece of paper?

.... why a moderator on an important educational forum may have said such a thing.

I would remind you that when not posting as a mod/admin, the mods/admins are to be considered the same as all other posters. They carry no special credibility, have no greater insights, and hold no special position with respect to all other posters.

 

[Michel H]

Fair enough, you wrote it down. That's curious though. Do you write down all conversations you have?

Very often yes. But that conversation in particular was, I felt, so important, that I wrote it down on a special paper.

It seemed more likely to me she something more like "even if people could hear your thoughts...", rather than agree that they really do, particularly since she later denied your interpretation. But that's just my opinion. I certainly don't expect you to believe it.

I suppose she said something like "there is something I want to tell you, ..." and so on. She later denied that such a phenomenon was taking place, but so did Loss Leader. More recently, she seemed to become a little bit more open to the idea (which does not violate the laws of physics, as far as I know), and so did Loss Leader (if I interpret his posts correctly).

Firstly, what's with the "your moderator"? The moderators are as much yours as they are mine or anyone else's. Secondly, it really was just a joke. You are however correct that I didn't like it, for the same reason I don't like it every time anyone jokes with you: because you don't realise they are joking.

When I said "your moderator", I was thinking "your moderator, of all the members here" like I could have said "your captain" in the Army. I was not thinking "Jack by the hedge's moderator".
Regarding the joke issue, I find no objective element leading to think this was a joke. It was just decreed to be a joke by the many people here who cannot stand the truth, I suppose.
And I don't think I am idiotic or mentally retarded to the point of never understanding jokes while others always do. I think I understand jokes as well that anyone else, although there may be some culture-specific allusions that require some explanations. The idea that I cannot understand jokes is a nasty myth which has been invented by a or several forum members here, and which then got repeated, because found convenient to dismiss some posts admitting that I am telepathic.

I'm sorry if you think it's nasty of me to point out that you appear to display glaringly obvious signs of a particular condition, but even if you can't believe me, I don't mean to cause you any distress nor to feel "superior". As regards open mindedness, I know I can immediately reject one possibility (that everyone hears your thoughts) because I know for a fact that I do not.

Well that's what you say... But several people have already openly admitted to lying to me on this forum. It is always very uncivil and offending to say to someone that he is mentally ill, and since you are (probably) not a doctor, you cannot diagnose. I personally don't believe that some people can start hearing internal voices in their brain, because of some neurochemical imbalance, but I am not an expert on this.

There's always the possibility that that's the sort of report one gets from a self-selected group of telepathy testers.

There was no selection, I tested and interviewed all people who called me.

As you might expect, I presume you only convince yourself this is really happening.

It's a very striking phenomenon. I you were in my shoes, you would probably quickly become convinced. And a psychiatrist admitted in an official setting hearing my thoughts.

 

[Michel H]

Do you keep a journal of all of your conversations? If not, why did you record just these two snippets of conversations? Why have you kept this particular piece of paper?

I wrote this conversation on a special paper because I felt it was very important to me. Then, later, I added a few things on that paper.

I would remind you that when not posting as a mod/admin, the mods/admins are to be considered the same as all other posters. They carry no special credibility, have no greater insights, and hold no special position with respect to all other posters.

I actually agree that mods/admins should be able to post freely, like any other member (and the members should be able to reply freely to them too). But, psychologically, in their own minds, they remain moderators/administrators, and it may be in their interest to post in a certain way (not necessarily good) to keep their job (for example a moderator who would get suspended every week for bad behavior probably wouldn't keep his job for very long).

 

[TheSapient]

I suppose she said something like "there is something I want to tell you, ..." and so on. She later denied that such a phenomenon was taking place, but so did Loss Leader. More recently, she seemed to become a little bit more open to the idea (which does not violate the laws of physics, as far as I know), and so did Loss Leader (if I interpret his posts correctly). .

You compare your mother to Loss Leader here. Do you feel you are as able to accurately represent your mother's words as you are Loss Leaders?

I want to go back to the question of what you hope to achieve with your tests. You believe you have telepathic abilities. You believe everyone else knows you have these abilities. Who are these tests for?

I also want to ask you about schizophrenia. As you know, your beliefs and experiences are consistent with the symptoms of that disease. Do you believe that schizophrenia is a real disorder, which real people suffer from? Do you believe it is a fake disease that was invented as part of the plot to deny your telepathic abilities? Or something else?

 

[AdMan]

Regarding the joke issue, I find no objective element leading to think this was a joke. It was just decreed to be a joke by the many people here who cannot stand the truth, I suppose.
And I don't think I am idiotic or mentally retarded to the point of never understanding jokes while others always do. I think I understand jokes as well that anyone else, although there may be some culture-specific allusions that require some explanations. The idea that I cannot understand jokes is a nasty myth which has been invented by a or several forum members here, and which then got repeated, because found convenient to dismiss some posts admitting that I am telepathic.

No one here has said you are "idiotic or mentally retarded" and so can never understand jokes. But you have clearly demonstrated that you do not understand the sarcasm and joking in several posts. The fact that you continue to argue that the posts were serious, even when the posters themselves told you they were not, is what leads people to think that you are unable to understand when people are just being sarcastic and having a bit of fun with you. Either that, or you actually get the sarcasm but are unwilling to accept people weren't serious because you desperately want to hold on to your belief that you are telepathic.

As others have said, I wish people wouldn't joke with you, because in either case it's just not helping.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

because found convenient to dismiss some posts admitting that I am telepathic.

No poster here has admitted you're telepathic.

Please produce said post.

 

[Giordano]

I honestly do not know what to do next in this thread. The best suggestions I have are likely to be ignored by Michel H. There are even points that I might want to make that I do not think the member's agreement would allow. One of the most serious problems involves self-awareness, which can be absent in the face of certain beliefs.

My experience is that presenting an alternative to a firmly held belief is very unlikely to alter this belief. The best I can do is to wish Michel H the best possible in finding the most happiness in his future. He might also humor his friends and family by asking professionals if there are better ways of dealing with the thoughts that make him unhappy than there were before. Michel H should also know that many people here care about and will help him find this improved happiness when he is ready to pursue it.

 

[Michel H]

...The fact that you continue to argue that the posts were serious, even when the posters themselves told you they were not, is what leads people to think that you are unable to understand when people are just being sarcastic and having a bit of fun with you....

But, Adman, the fact that somebody has said at some point that his post was not serious does not necessarily mean that this post was really not serious, this may just have been a way for that person to try to "cancel" a post admitting clearly "my telepathy", which was found later (at some point) to be embarrassing and annoying.

 

[Akhenaten]

But, Adman, the fact that somebody has said at some point that his post was not serious does not necessarily mean that this post was really not serious, this may just have been a way for that person to try to "cancel" a post admitting clearly "my telepathy", which was found later (at some point) to be embarrassing and annoying.

Even if such a ridiculous scenario was true, you'd have no way of knowing.

This entire thread is ample testimony to the fact that you are unable to tell whether or not people are serious.

 

[Michel H]

You compare your mother to Loss Leader here. Do you feel you are as able to accurately represent your mother's words as you are Loss Leaders?

I think that I can say with confidence that I remember well and that I understood well what my mother told me (in addition, I have written it down, to be sure).

I want to go back to the question of what you hope to achieve with your tests. You believe you have telepathic abilities. You believe everyone else knows you have these abilities. Who are these tests for?

Ideally, I would like to have "my telepathy" recognized, and to see the persecutions against me end. I am also considering writing and submitting for publication a scientific article about "my (hypothetical) telepathy".

I also want to ask you about schizophrenia. As you know, your beliefs and experiences are consistent with the symptoms of that disease. Do you believe that schizophrenia is a real disorder, which real people suffer from? Do you believe it is a fake disease that was invented as part of the plot to deny your telepathic abilities? Or something else?

The term schizophrenia was invented by the Swiss psychiatrist Bleuler in 1908, before I was born. But you might want to take a look at this article:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120826050539/http://www.antipsychiatry.org/schizoph.htm
Last updated in 2001, it was written by a lawyer who has represented psychiatric "patients". Its title is: SCHIZOPHRENIA, A Nonexistent Disease.

 

[fromdownunder]

I actually agree that mods/admins should be able to post freely, like any other member (and the members should be able to reply freely to them too). But, psychologically, in their own minds, they remain moderators/administrators, and it may be in their interest to post in a certain way (not necessarily good) to keep their job (for example a moderator who would get suspended every week for bad behavior probably wouldn't keep his job for very long).

Now I know that you are on a different planet than I am. As a Moderator/Admin on another Board, I am always a member, and only post "as Mod" when I am enforcing rules. When there is no rule violation it does not even enter my mind that I am a Mod, and I just respond to posts.

But you from your high horse now claim to be able to read Mods minds and make the stupid claim that "psychologically, in their own minds, they remain moderators/administrators". Do you have any evidence for this, or is it just something else that you made up?

And "his job?" Are you even aware that all Mod positions here (and on my Board) are completely voluntary and get no remuneration for the unpaid hours they spend enforcing the rules? They are simply, like you, members. But in the case of Mods, they like the Forum well enough to volunteer their unpaid labour to keep the Board going in the manner required (which also often involves backroom discussion and negotiation)

And as far as Loss Leaders joke goes see the bolded part, you just don't get it:

I am seeing a 4 very clearly. It's almost as though I had written it myself.

He is stating right in front of your eyes that he did just write it himself. It's nobody else's fault that you cannot see the obvious. You just don't get it, and have no desire to.

Norm.

 

[Michel H]

Now I know that you are on a different planet than I am. As a Moderator/Admin on another Board, I am always a member, and only post "as Mod" when I am enforcing rules. When there is no rule violation it does not even enter my mind that I am a Mod, and I just respond to posts.

But you from your high horse now claim to be able to read Mods minds and make the stupid claim that "psychologically, in their own minds, they remain moderators/administrators". Do you have any evidence for this, or is it just something else that you made up?

And "his job?" Are you even aware that all Mod positions here (and on my Board) are completely voluntary and get no remuneration for the unpaid hours they spend enforcing the rules? They are simply, like you, members. But in the case of Mods, they like the Forum well enough to volunteer their unpaid labour to keep the Board going in the manner required (which also often involves backroom discussion and negotiation)

And as far as Loss Leaders joke goes see the bolded part, you just don't get it:



He is stating right in front of your eyes that he did just write it himself. It's nobody else's fault that you cannot see the obvious. You just don't get it, and have no desire to.

Norm.

Here, it's different from your case it seems, because mods always post as mods (it's always visible they're mods).
And I don't think Loss Leader said that he just wrote himself the number. What he said (roughly) was that the mental image of the number was so clear and vivid that it was as if he had just written the number himself, in front of his eyes.

 

[Akhenaten]

Here, it's different from your case it seems, because mods always post as mods (it's always visible they're mods).

You've got to be kidding me.

No, wait . . .