New Study documents the brain damage caused by marijuana

You need to add in the consequences, not just the 'habit'. With tobacco, we know there are serious health consequences. With hard drugs and alcoholism people continue to use in spite of serious health and life consequences.

You just don't see that with pot.

I beg to differ. One of the main objections to the current situation is the too severe punishments we have in place for getting busted with pot. These are certainly consequences that users face if they decide to partake. They may be artificial consequences, but they are certainly real and well publicized.

To then say they aren't risking serious consequences is to have your cake and eat it too. The adverse health results are minimal and debatable, but anyone who uses illegally knows they are breaking the law. If marijuana isn't attractive enough for people to risk fines, forfeiture and incarceration, why do they use it?

Either they are scofflaws, in denial about the possible consequences, don't think they will get caught, too impulsive to care, stupid, irresponsible, or maybe fighting the good fight through civil disobedience (leaving out those who use it for medical purposes).

Some people like to smoke weed. They like it enough to risk doing it illegally. I doubt they would stop liking it if you told them there was some long term, poor medical outcome (if there were, hypothetically).
 
'Man busted for pot dies in Snohomish Co. jail'

The Bellingham Herald said:
EVERETT, WASH. — A 22-year-old man with severe food allergies died in the Snohomish County jail after a pot bust, and now his mother says she wants to know why.

Michael Saffioti died a day after turning himself in to face a misdemeanor marijuana charge on July 2, The Herald newspaper of Everett and KIRO-TV of Seattle reported. The Snohomish County medical examiner's office determined last week that he died from bronchial asthma brought on by his milk allergy.
 
Vaccinations are beneficial but not harmless. Vitamins are beneficial but not harmless.

Beneficial means that the harmful effects are outweighed by the positive ones.

Good point. And it supports the use of marijuana for medical purposes.
 
Thanks for the explanation. If I understand it right, the flow is:
1) Drug war increases cost of drugs
2) Gangs get money from selling drugs because it's lucrative
3) Gangs kill (or just shoot) people with guns they bought with drug money.

Which makes the answer come out:
5) Make drugs legal and gangs won't have any money to buy guns and shooting people will go down.

Is that pretty much the argument in soundbites?
You left out the part where most of the gang fights originate over control of drug territory.

Do you likewise think the gang wars in the 1920s had nothing to do with alcohol prohibition?
 
You left out the part where most of the gang fights originate over control of drug territory.

Do you likewise think the gang wars in the 1920s had nothing to do with alcohol prohibition?

I'm willing to assume they did.

What happened after Prohibition ended though. Did the gangs go away or move on to other things? Aren't gangs typical of other organizations that have multiple purposes and can change with the times and legal landscape?

I'm not a sociologist, but I'd guess that gangs spring as much from poverty and a lack of real opportunity as they do from a money-making opportunity. I seem to recall extortion (by way of protection) as a popular money-maker.

I did try to check out the price of street guns, but only found an undated thing from Frontline: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/interviews/wachtel.html out of SoCal that put the most popular pistol at $300 bucks.

All that said, I don't know how linear drugs=gangs/gang violence works out. I assume someone has looked into it, so I won't dispute it's part of the picture.
 
I'm willing to assume they did.

What happened after Prohibition ended though. Did the gangs go away or move on to other things?
They went on to other things that weren't nearly as profitable and thus had much less of a body count.
 
I beg to differ. One of the main objections to the current situation is the too severe punishments we have in place for getting busted with pot. These are certainly consequences that users face if they decide to partake. They may be artificial consequences, but they are certainly real and well publicized.

To then say they aren't risking serious consequences is to have your cake and eat it too. The adverse health results are minimal and debatable, but anyone who uses illegally knows they are breaking the law. If marijuana isn't attractive enough for people to risk fines, forfeiture and incarceration, why do they use it?

Either they are scofflaws, in denial about the possible consequences, don't think they will get caught, too impulsive to care, stupid, irresponsible, or maybe fighting the good fight through civil disobedience (leaving out those who use it for medical purposes).

Some people like to smoke weed. They like it enough to risk doing it illegally. I doubt they would stop liking it if you told them there was some long term, poor medical outcome (if there were, hypothetically).
Considering the number of people who admit to using pot when surveyed, I'd say it is reasonable for the majority of pot smokers to believe they will not be arrested or suffer negative consequences for smoking.

By your standard, drivers in the US are all mostly addicted to speeding. After all, they do it despite the 'potential' consequences of large fines.


It's hard to convey to you what the difference is, but most people who work with addicts, (including alcoholics), understand at once that pot doesn't have the same consequences as other addictive substances. It doesn't ruin people's lives with the exception of the poor sots that were swept up in the Federal Minimum Sentencing webs and given decades to life in prison for marijuana offenses. That isn't the consequence of using pot, that's the consequence of ignorant legislators and not enough public outcry.
 
Considering the number of people who admit to using pot when surveyed, I'd say it is reasonable for the majority of pot smokers to believe they will not be arrested or suffer negative consequences for smoking.

By your standard, drivers in the US are all mostly addicted to speeding. After all, they do it despite the 'potential' consequences of large fines.

Do you suppose that people would be as willing to speed if the penalties more closely mirrored those for marijuana? We don't even have to use the official term addiction -- we can just say, "a behavior people are willing to continue in the face of very negative consequences." I believe you claimed there were no negative consequences, and that's why I brought it up.

And yes, I agree that most don't think they will be caught. But when they are, and when they've already suffered the consequences, the majority continue to use weed. Addiction could explain that, but isn't necessary. Human perversity or a drive toward freedom would work as well. I think it's as simple as, "I like getting high."

I was objecting to the idea that people can simply drop the behavior like changing dirty underwear. Even if they "can," demonstrably, they do not.

It's hard to convey to you what the difference is, but most people who work with addicts, (including alcoholics), understand at once that pot doesn't have the same consequences as other addictive substances. It doesn't ruin people's lives with the exception of the poor sots that were swept up in the Federal Minimum Sentencing webs and given decades to life in prison for marijuana offenses. That isn't the consequence of using pot, that's the consequence of ignorant legislators and not enough public outcry.

I don't dispute this either. I do not like most parallels made to other substances and think marijuana should be evaluated on it's own merits and faults.

On federal minimum sentencing, we are moving from the user's perspective to the dealers perspective. Again, I wouldn't claim that dealers are addicted to marijuana, but in it primarily for the money. This moves an offense from one of possession for personal use into another territory, doesn't it? One where the product isn't as important as the willingness to sell something illegal for profit.

The dealer class is certainly aware of how severe the penalties are and, if they aren't simply using weed for the good feelings it provides, how can they be viewed as anything other than a willful criminal intent on making money by way of great risk?

This is not to minimize the many cases of laws misapplied and resulting injustice. But we are talking about a whole class of crime, not cherry picking. I am not convinced that the majority of cases are of this type. We could look a few up if you like.

If someone sets out to move a pound or two of weed for profit, how is that different than doing it with any other illegal product? It could be elephant ivory for all I care -- they went in with eyes open and evil intent. Or do they have a justification I am overlooking?
 
Portugal decriminalized drugs a decade ago. What have we learned?

NOTHING! We've learned absolutely nothing because we, Americans, are grossly stupid and too willing to buy the BS of those who are keeping this phony drug war going.

It amazes me that with all that we know we continue to act as total and complete idiots. It costs $47,000 to incarcerate an inmate in California for one year. That inmate cannot meaningfully and substantively contribute to society in excess of that cost. It's not even close. Just a big sink hole to throw money down. Lots and lots of money. I don't give a damn if these are dealers. So the F what? Decriminalize drugs and the problem largely goes away (see the Portugal example).

And we are spending all of this money on a phony war against drugs when all of the evidence shows that it doesn't work.

Now, marijuana? Are you ******* kidding me? You are far more likely to suffer injury or death as a result of driving or riding in a car.

Look, I get it, regulate drugs. Same as we do for Tobacco and alcohol (two of the deadliest pastimes known to humans) but this idiotic war on drugs has got to stop. There just is no justification to throw away so much money and to throw away so many lives that could contribute rather than suck the system dry. Dumb. Just really, really dumb.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/17/111017fa_fact_specter#ixzz29P9Fiv3N
​
 
A lot of people are addicted to alcohol. Alcohol addiction has one nasty effect that no other drug has: withdrawal can kill you (quitting other drugs cold turkey can be extremely unpleasant but no other drug is known to be potentially lethal when you DT).
Barbiturates & maybe even benzodiazepines should do the job.
 
Has anyone in this conversation ever been addicted?
That's where the rubber meets the road and freedom has left the building. You are asking me to support slavery because you want me to believe people choose to become slaves.

If addiction is a disease, and it can be mitigated by restricting access to drugs, doesn't society have an obligation to restrict that access? If the objective is to lessen the societal costs of the war on drugs, that's fine, change the way you fight. But to abandon everything because it isn't working as is seems to miss the point of making them illegal in the first place.
Most prohibitionists approaches seem, in practice, to involve, in recognition of the harm that the drug may cause on the addict, imposing even greater harm on the addict (both if they get caught and, due to unintended consequences, even if they don't get caught)as well as imposing harm on their loved ones and on society at large. But its OK because it's for their own good.

Thanks, I'll pass.
 
Portugal decriminalized drugs a decade ago. What have we learned?

NOTHING! We've learned absolutely nothing because we, Americans, are grossly stupid and too willing to buy the BS of those who are keeping this phony drug war going.

It amazes me that with all that we know we continue to act as total and complete idiots. It costs $47,000 to incarcerate an inmate in California for one year. That inmate cannot meaningfully and substantively contribute to society in excess of that cost. It's not even close. Just a big sink hole to throw money down. Lots and lots of money. I don't give a damn if these are dealers. So the F what? Decriminalize drugs and the problem largely goes away (see the Portugal example).

And we are spending all of this money on a phony war against drugs when all of the evidence shows that it doesn't work.

Now, marijuana? Are you ******* kidding me? You are far more likely to suffer injury or death as a result of driving or riding in a car.

Look, I get it, regulate drugs. Same as we do for Tobacco and alcohol (two of the deadliest pastimes known to humans) but this idiotic war on drugs has got to stop. There just is no justification to throw away so much money and to throw away so many lives that could contribute rather than suck the system dry. Dumb. Just really, really dumb.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/17/111017fa_fact_specter#ixzz29P9Fiv3N
​
Surely disaster is soon to come. Just give it time, just give it time!

No sarcasm tags, are there?
 
The original point of the war (going back to Nixon and ended by Obama -- at least the term "War on Drugs"
Oh well, if we are not calling it that, then it's OK, then. Props to Obama!
) was to interdict the supply of drugs to the using community. You might look at Quaaludes as one of the few examples of where it actually worked very well.
It depends on what happens to people who formerly used quaaludes. Do they simply stop taking such harmful substances or do they simply switch to other equally harmful or more harmful substances? In the latter case, it's not a success, it's just good PR for the "drug war".
 
Surely disaster is soon to come. Just give it time, just give it time!

No sarcasm tags, are there?
Given that California is in serious financial crises and given that we spend so much to incarcerate drug offenders, the disaster came 4 years ago and people have already been seriously hurt because of the asinine policy.

More time is not needed.
 
First off all I got warned already in this thread so I think it's time the subject were changed but I'll answer the previous "Your data" response. Google opiodes. Read about what they do to your body. Read about the body then. Understand how depressing autonomic responses is really really really bad for you. This isn't a matter of dosage, it's a matter of your body's response to said dosage. This is common understanding in toxicology.
Better get started editing the Wikipedia entry on this because it seems to paint a radically different picture of this. Yes, it'll affect different people differently and if you're a regular user you'll absolutely develop a greater tolerance to it and require higher doses to achieve the same effect. But what you seem to be saying is that tolerance is going to vary greatly and unpredictably depending on the time of day.
 
Given that California is in serious financial crises and given that we spend so much to incarcerate drug offenders, the disaster came 4 years ago and people have already been seriously hurt because of the asinine policy.

More time is not needed.
Sorry, my sarcasm tags remark meant that sarcasm tags, if they existed, should have been inserted. It did not mean that I did not insert them because I was not meaning to be sarcastic.
 

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