New Scientist: Acupuncture's scientific credentials are growing

technoextreme said:
Yeah I pretty much proved that most of those studies are horrendously flawed the last time we got into a debate about this.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you believe that. I'm also sure you ignored everything contradictory to your black & white opinion.
 
Erigena said:
In the case of acupuncture, as a placebo it might be somewhat effective.
Click to expand...

Read the sources I cited. There are reliable studies showing that it's more than just placebo. Some studies show that acupuncture and "sham" acupuncture outperform placebo, which is why it's so important to keep your terminology clearly defined. The biological response of sticking needles is objectively measurable. As casebro pointed out, the effect may be similar to stubbing a toe, but the question is what beneficial effects might there be from causing these biological reactions. The meridian/chi stuff is nonsense, that's for sure.
 
UncaYimmy said:
Read the sources I cited. There are reliable studies showing that it's more than just placebo. Some studies show that acupuncture and "sham" acupuncture outperform placebo, which is why it's so important to keep your terminology clearly defined. The biological response of sticking needles is objectively measurable. As casebro pointed out, the effect may be similar to stubbing a toe, but the question is what beneficial effects might there be from causing these biological reactions. The meridian/chi stuff is nonsense, that's for sure.
Click to expand...
So why are you or these people calling it acupuncture? Why not call it skin needling?
 
If the "sham" acupuncture has measurable effects, maybe it's just the result of our little brains saying.."Ouch...needles in skin...release endorphins!"
 
Bikewer said:
If the "sham" acupuncture has measurable effects, maybe it's just the result of our little brains saying.."Ouch...needles in skin...release endorphins!"
Click to expand...
There is also a gating effect for nerves.

Some stimuli from nerve X can suppress stimuli from nerve Y. Imagine nerve X being stimulated with needles and nerve Y being stimulated with a fire. The small stimuli from the needles can decrease the pain from the fire.
 
paximperium said:
So why are you or these people calling it acupuncture? Why not call it skin needling?
Click to expand...

My guess is that the studies seem to be initiated from one of two directions: either the it's an advocate of acupuncture trying to prove something or a "disbeliever" trying to show there's nothing there. In either case there will be needles stuck in the "traditional" acupuncture spots, hence the term.

If you read the literature, however, you'll see them testing "sham acupuncture." Other studies have just looked at the biological reactions to needle sticks. This is one reason why the whole damn thing is a pain in the ass to properly study. You know that sticking needles in people causes the body to react, so how do you control for that? I believe I have seen studies testing traditional acupuncture, sham acupuncture (needle sticking), an anti-nausea med, and a placebo med. As I recall they found all three worked better than the placebo med.

It's just a word anyway. What they actually do in the study is what counts regardless of what they call it.
 
UncaYimmy said:
I'm sure you believe that. I'm also sure you ignored everything contradictory to your black & white opinion.
Click to expand...
How can I? If I use sane rational logic then I have to conclude that the vast majority of what you just posted is crap. Its kind of funny for a man who whined about ignoring evidence you apparently never did read the studies that I provided about the flawed methodology of acupuncture studies. And you apparently kept on pontificating without bating an eye that there might be a problem with those sources.
 
Last edited:
technoextreme said:
Wow. So you never did read the papers that I had showing that acupuncture studies are crap.
Click to expand...

I'm not playing this game again since here you are (again) moving the goal posts from "most" studies to an implication against all studies. I posted links to plenty of resources. Acupuncture based on meridians and chi is resoundingly debunked. Sticking people with needles, however, does seem to have effects. Here's one concerning rats and polycystic ovaries:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11058557?dopt=Abstract
The main findings in the present study were first, that significantly higher concentrations of NGF were found in the ovaries and the adrenal glands in the rats in the PCO model than in the control rats that were only injected with the vehicle (oil or NaCl). Second, that repeated EA [electro-acupuncture] treatments in PCO rats resulted in concentrations of NGF in the ovaries that were significantly lower than those in non-EA-treated PCO rats but were within a normal range that did not differ from those in the untreated oil and NaCl control groups. The results in the present study provide support for the theory that EA inhibits hyperactivity in the sympathetic nervous system.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom