New PSI forum

[scribble]

Well, good for you, but you are wrong about my intentions. I am not out to convince believers that they are wrong - I have learned that it is close to impossible. However, as I said, I am out to find answers. We can learn something here, something that will help a lot of people immensely, and I want to know what it is.

Hey, careful there. That's the kind of talk that got Geoff to attack me way back when.

Seems he's only got two explanations for his beliefs: ignoring you or running away.

 

[AOK Tiger]

I am amused by all “Possible/Impossible” stuff.

EVERYTHING is possible if you make up enough ridiculous parameters in which they can operate.

EG Santa could have a teleportation device and a time machine.. allowing instantaneous access to all houses with no “real” time lost in each visitation.

But we must judge Santa (and psi) by KNOWN science (or even allow for likely science).

Teleportation devices and times machine do not exist therefore Santa is considered impossible.

There is no KNOWN scientific (or even likely) mechanism for psi to work. Therefore for all intents and purposes it is impossible.

JustGeoff,

Your example of the past altering does NOT fit with scientific possibility. But what DOES fit with scientific possibility is the FACT that humans can mistakenly THINK the past has altered.

Therefore WHY would you think it reality that the past has altered and discount the (more likely and mundane) explanation that you (fallible human) are wrong.

All we EVER ask for is collaborating evidence of fantastic claims. The simple fact that NONE ever exist is why we tend to discount those claims. If I personally had your experience I would look for collaborating evidence.. if NONE was forthcoming I would HAVE to assume it was some human failing on my part that led me to the experience.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

I am not talking about changing peoples views, but I am talking about finding answers to questions. We can learn so much, if these paranormal claims are true. You, it seems, are content with sitting back and dream about it. I want to know, if possible.

Then go look for it. On your own. If what I am telling you is true then it is also true that you cannot wait for science to find these answers for you. Instead you have to find them yourself. Science is very effective at answering a very wide set of clearly defined questions about the history and behaviour of the physical world, but there are a whole load of other questions that science on its own cannot provide answers to. Not because it hasn't had sufficient time, but because it is the wrong tool.

Well, good for you, but you are wrong about my intentions. I am not out to convince believers that they are wrong - I have learned that it is close to impossible. However, as I said, I am out to find answers. We can learn something here, something that will help a lot of people immensely, and I want to know what it is.

You may sit back, but I won't.

What answers are you looking for?

What questions would you most like to find answers to?

 

[UndercoverElephant]

Your example of the past altering does NOT fit with scientific possibility. But what DOES fit with scientific possibility is the FACT that humans can mistakenly THINK the past has altered.

I think Schroedinger would have disagreed. QM really does suggest that the unobserved past is indeterminate. Which interpretation of QM do you ascribe to, and how does it deal with this problem?

Therefore WHY would you think it reality that the past has altered and discount the (more likely and mundane) explanation that you (fallible human) are wrong.

You know what my answer to this question is.

All we EVER ask for is collaborating evidence of fantastic claims. The simple fact that NONE ever exist is why we tend to discount those claims.

Perfectly understandable.

If I personally had your experience I would look for collaborating evidence.. if NONE was forthcoming I would HAVE to assume it was some human failing on my part that led me to the experience.

You can't really judge it, because you weren't there. I suppose that is what I have been trying to say for the whole thread. Nobody can judge somebody-elses experiences apart from by their own beliefs, understandings and standards. We all walk our own paths.

 

[scribble]

What answers are you looking for?

What questions would you most like to find answers to?

Why do you ask? Are you going to arrange for "God" to make a little late-night post on his computer with all the answers in it, too?

Should he be concerned about hosting a copyright violation?

You can't really judge it, because you weren't there.

...

We all walk our own paths.

Your path has led you to delusion.

 

[Lothian]

Is it possible for one particle to be in two places at once?

Ah, I see it is possible. Cool!

Talking to your self is not a good sign.

W hy are we talking about Father Chrismans anyway?

I think this is getting a little derailed.

Best Mate, it has got derailed you are right. As I recall it started when you said that to create Santa Claus out of thin air you only need to close your eyes, tap the heels of your red slippers together three times and repeat I wish there was a Santa, I wish there was a Santa.

Anyway, then Claus and Geoff started talking about whether this Santa created out of nothing would be defying the laws of Physics by visiting every house. Geoff thought it impossible. Scribble reminded Geoff of some of his impossible thoughts. Like in 2012 consciousness will reach critical mass and something special will happen, Can’t at the moment recall exactly what it was. Might have been the critical Santa event horizon.

So as stated we have got off topic. So back to the main subject.

Do you, like Dr Schwartz believe that if enough people want Santa Claus to exist it will physically create him ?
Do you believe that if enough people want certain lottery numbers to come up they will ?

If the answers to the questions above are both yes then is there any limit to what we can physically do or create through thought. In other words to take something really stupid could I actually fly to the moon without a spacesuit, stay for a day and fly back. Or even more outlandish could I remote view.

If one is yes and one is no then what limits the power of mass consciousness ?

 

[CFLarsen]

Then go look for it. On your own. If what I am telling you is true then it is also true that you cannot wait for science to find these answers for you. Instead you have to find them yourself. Science is very effective at answering a very wide set of clearly defined questions about the history and behaviour of the physical world, but there are a whole load of other questions that science on its own cannot provide answers to. Not because it hasn't had sufficient time, but because it is the wrong tool.

I am perpetually surprised at this attitude. You are quite content with reaping the benefits of science, but you will not lift a finger to help it progress.

What answers are you looking for?

In this field of interest, I would like to find answers to whether people really have paranormal powers. It would be an amazing discovery, so full of benefits for mankind.

You argue in favor of paranormal phenomena being true, but you are not really interested in finding out whether they are true or not. So, the question is: Do you really believe in paranormal phenomena, or is it merely something that makes you feel good inside, but you are afraid to have that fantasy shattered by reality?

 

[AOK Tiger]

Claus,

The HUGE irony is that if anything paranormal is EVER discovered I would bet it will be by sceptics.

People who use proper protocols and scientific method and have little chance of being put off by “experimenter bias”.. (sorry experimenter effect).

The people who generally study the “paranormal” are so woo wooised that the experiments they produce are garbage.

 

[Pixel42]

Just reading Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel 'The Hogfather'. (The Hogfather is the Discworld equivalent of Santa Claus).

Here's a character answering a child's "Is there really a Hogfather?" question:

Wherever people are obtuse and absurd ... and wherever they have, by even the most generous standards, the attention span of a small chicken in a hurricane and the investigative ability of a one-legged cockcroach ... and wherever people are inanely credulous, pathetically attached to the certainties of the nursery and, in general, have as much grasp of the realities of the physical universe as an oyster has of mountaineering ...yes Twyla, there is a Hogfather.

I may make this my signature.

 

[scribble]

I may make this my signature.

That's a winner!

 

[scribble]

Scribble reminded Geoff of some of his impossible thoughts. Like in 2012 consciousness will reach critical mass and something special will happen, Can’t at the moment recall exactly what it was. Might have been the critical Santa event horizon.

Hahaha...!!

Okay, I don't have to derail the thread any further. Just let me say thank you for validating my memories.

 

[CFLarsen]

Claus,

The HUGE irony is that if anything paranormal is EVER discovered I would bet it will be by sceptics.

People who use proper protocols and scientific method and have little chance of being put off by “experimenter bias”.. (sorry experimenter effect).

The people who generally study the “paranormal” are so woo wooised that the experiments they produce are garbage.

I believe you are correct.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

I am perpetually surprised at this attitude. You are quite content with reaping the benefits of science, but you will not lift a finger to help it progress.

So why do you think I have decided to go to University to study a joint Cognitive Science and Philosophy degree?

If you are constantly surprised by this attitude, have you considered the possibility that you don't fully understand where it comes from?

Science is just one tool for understanding these issues, but it does not exist in isolation. My interest lies in the border between science and metaphysics, and that is why I have chosen to study it. The University I am going to (Sussex) has one of the best Cognitive Science departments in Britain, but it is the first year they have offered a joint degree with philosophy. I am already fascinated by the interplay between the two departments I will be studying under. When I spoke to them, I felt like both tried to play down the relevance of the other. The Philosophers spoke about the cognitive science department as "a chance to brush up on my programming" (I am a software engineer). I probably don't need to tell you how the cognitive scientists view the philosophers. PROGRESS will come when these two groups of people start working more closely together, wouldn't you agree?

Given my situation, I rather resent the comment I am responding to. I think I am doing more to help the situation than you are.

In this field of interest, I would like to find answers to whether people really have paranormal powers. It would be an amazing discovery, so full of benefits for mankind.

Not neccesarily. It is entirely possible that these phenomena do exist, but they cannot be harnessed and put to work like normal physical phenomena do. Their role may be rather different.

You argue in favor of paranormal phenomena being true, but you are not really interested in finding out whether they are true or not. So, the question is: Do you really believe in paranormal phenomena, or is it merely something that makes you feel good inside, but you are afraid to have that fantasy shattered by reality?

CFL, I know you cannot accept it, but I do not have to ask this question any longer. I know perfectly well that paranormal phenomena exist, it is not a question of belief. I have seen more than enough to answer those questions for myself. It dominated much of the previous few years of my life. That does not mean I have no remaining questions, far from it. I have more questions than I did before, it's just they are different questions. I am more interested in the circumstances under which these phenomena manifest, how they are being driven, whether they can be trusted to be as they appear to be, how they have influenced the development of mankind, and a whole host of other related topics. But I do not have to find an answer as to whether they exist, because denying their existence and reality would be denying the most powerful and important experiences of my life. From your POV, you still have to ask questions about whether I was hallucinating or mistaken. From mine, those questions lie in the past. I know I was not hallucinating, and I am not mistaken, and if you were in my position, so would you.

You seem to think I am scared of having my "fantasies destroyed". Fear of such things simply does not register with me any more. Some of the phenomena I experienced were absolutely terrifying. Indescribably terrifying to the point where I was a completely shattered and broken person, which in hindsight was the "purpose" of the phenomena - at that point I had to be broken. I had a very high breaking point, but these phenomena were being driven by forces so much more powerful than me that I was left like an ant before a bulldozer. I surrendered because I had no choice - my reality was collapsing in on me. That is fear. Being scared of broken fantasies is not an issue for me.

 

[scribble]

CFL, I know you cannot accept it, but I do not have to ask this question any longer. I know perfectly well that paranormal phenomena exist, it is not a question of belief. I have seen more than enough to answer those questions for myself. It dominated much of the previous few years of my life. ... I know I was not hallucinating, and I am not mistaken, and if you were in my position, so would you. [/B]

You sound pretty confident, considering the drugs you admitted to doing back then.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

You sound pretty confident, considering the drugs you admitted to doing back then.

Well, I am also quite familiar with what a bad acid trip is like, and it just isn't on the same scale.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

Do you, like Dr Schwartz believe that if enough people want Santa Claus to exist it will physically create him ?
Do you believe that if enough people want certain lottery numbers to come up they will ?

No, and no. There is a kernel of truth here, but the examples you have given are poor ones.

If the answers to the questions above are both yes then is there any limit to what we can physically do or create through thought. In other words to take something really stupid could I actually fly to the moon without a spacesuit, stay for a day and fly back. Or even more outlandish could I remote view.

If one is yes and one is no then what limits the power of mass consciousness ?

Unknown. Apart from being unable to create something which is inherently illogical, I do not know what the limits are. That is a question I would also like to see answers to. And actually, if you read the opening post of this thread you will see that Lucianarchy also wants answers of this sort. Unfortunately we cannot get off of square one until the skeptics acknowledge that there is something to investigate! It is not people like me and Luci who are preventing progress on this. It is people who claim that all paranormalists are liars, frauds and incompetents, and claim that there is no bias whatsoever within the skeptical community. Progress will come when both sides stop the trench warfare and start trying to understand the other side.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

The HUGE irony is that if anything paranormal is EVER discovered I would bet it will be by sceptics.

Except you have discounted the possibility that it has already been discovered, and that the skeptics are failing to acknowledge the evidence.

People who use proper protocols and scientific method and have little chance of being put off by “experimenter bias”.. (sorry experimenter effect).

But you don't think that the skeptics are likely to be at all biased because of the (already discussed) fact that acknowledging the existence of paranormal phenomena would shatter their own belief system?

Come on folks, the argument that the skeptics are completely unbiased and that parapsychology is peopled entirely by frauds and jokers doesn't convince anyone but those people already in total agreement with the so-called "skeptics". I don't think you are doing yourself any favours by taking such an extreme and one-sided position. One might have thought that the hardliners here might have learned something from the whole ludicrous "brights" movement thing, which flew like a lead balloon last year.

Anyone here a "bright"?

It was so ridiculous that even most of the skeptical movement could see the one-sidedness and extremism, but it looks like nothing was learned from it.

The people who generally study the “paranormal” are so woo wooised that the experiments they produce are garbage. [/B]

Oh good. Write off the whole field. I can see your impartiality shining like a beacon of fair-mindedness.

It's a great piece of circular reasoning :

All parapsychologists are woo-woos, therefore any result they produce can safely be discounted, therefore there is no evidence to back up their claims, therefore all parasychologists are woo-woos. Super!

I say again : do you actually think you are doing anything but preaching to the choir?

 

[Lucianarchy]

My experience is that if you put down your net and stop running around furiously trying to catch them, the butterflies will come to you.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

My experience is that if you put down your net and stop running around furiously trying to catch them, the butterflies will come to you.

"A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards; as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push." (Wittgenstein)

He was a clever old fellow, our friend Ludwig.

 

[Lucianarchy]

"A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards; as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push." (Wittgenstein)

He was a clever old fellow, our friend Ludwig.

Indeed. However, the penal system suggests that some people will only ever find security 'inside'.

If I am correct, the effects lead to an ultimate form of personal responsibility.