This is all very sad. It's exactly the sort of thing that makes me lose faith in humanity, and the sort of thing that slowly turns me cynical. Sizzler came along asking questions and a few people speculated that he was just another Troofer. I thought, no, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He's being reasonable, hasn't trotted out any of the usual Troofer garbage, he seems to show a genuine interest in learning.
But here we are almost 500 posts later and he's starting to show his true colors. Granted it's taken a lot longer than usual but like all of them he's slowly coming out of his costume.
Thank you Sizzler. Thank you for proving me wrong and teaching me a lesson I needed to be reminded of: Never trust anyone who's JAQing off.
I have been comming to the conclusion that the leaders of the conspiracy industry are in it for the money (Books, donation, web site hits, tee-shirts, radio listeners ETC...) Politics (people who don't like our present government, both from the left and the right, people pushing candidates like Ron Paul) Religion (People who want a religious government or to push religion on the conspiracy consumers) Some are a combination of two or more. The followers are more complex. I think many of them gew up with X-files and a president who said "The scarest 9 words in the english language are "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" (Something like that) We are being taught to hate and fear it instead of realizing we are it. So when someone tells you the government murdered 3000 people you are more likely to believe it because it you have been brainwashed from birth. Government is always the bad guy in the movies.
The educational system does not teach critical thinking skills. They are told to read books and are not told to question them. Teachers are smart and professors smarter. If David Ray Griffin writes a book that says the towers were blown up then it most likely was in their mind. He is a teacher (Positive Alpha male) talking about the government (Negative group we fear), Our instincts cloud our judgment seamlessly - honed over hundreds of millions of of years to do so.
Its the reptilian brain which have taken over the followers. The pesky part of the brain which causes people to kill for 72 virgins. Or kill to sit on the right hand of the alpha male (God) in the after life.
Well, it would have been more honest to put all your cards on the table right in your original post. You implied to have been newly introduced to the topic by a friend who watched Zeitgeist, if I remember correctly.
There is a bit of a trial by fire for new posters here, especially if certain questions are asked. If you take a look at some of the replies I got when I first came here there are a few down right rude ones, and others telling me to style my posts or they'd put me on ignore. I doubt that many would say the same things to me now as they did then. Often some posters here can be very rude and hostile, though I get the feeling it's from repeated Truther encounters and has made them a little tempermental. Personally if I ever found myself doing it I'd know it was time to close the browser and take a long holiday from the forum.
Well, it would have been more honest to put all your cards on the table right in your original post. You implied to have been newly introduced to the topic by a friend who watched Zeitgeist, if I remember correctly.
Oh and I noticed on 911 blogger that Greg U. has done a nice slide presentation about the crush up part of the collapse initiation.
I don't want to step on any toes so if anyone is truly interested, ask him to post his slide presentation. It really does a good job showing crush up before crush down. In my opinion of course.
Hey GregoryUrich, I've done some back of the envelope calculations based on simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils and come to the conclusion that bumblebees cannot fly!
Is there any chance you could check my calculations to confirm it because I believe there is a problem here and I'm going to reserve my judgment on this aspect of reality until you get back to me.
The top of the lower section. Why? Because its too high up to be the bottom of the top section. It would have disconnected first and been past the dust cloud already. It doesn't matter how quick the frame rate is. Frame rate doesn't make a column fall slower than a dusty cloud.
And where is it in the photo above? Could it be hidden behind the dust cloud?
It's the small lines stuck together like a column tree on the right of the dust cloud...
And, does the building actually get skinnier from bottom to top?
If it doesn't, don't you think it would be a pretty tight fit for the top part to go into the bottom part WITHOUT the bottom part's perimeter columns falling off?
You superimposed the pictures and the bottom of the top part is well below the dust cloud. Shouldn't this be the collapse front? Should'nt perimeter columns be ripping off everytime it crushes a new floor?
If WTC towers get skinnier at the top, I stand corrected.
First, you are starting from a false premise. The parts of two faces are ALREADY behind the lower section before it even starts to fall. You ignore the fact that the top is pivoted with one face leaning inward and another out. It pivoted from the middle and not the corner remember? That means at least one full face and the bottom of another were inside the building when it fell. You can't dispute this simple fact. The north face was ALREADY completely inside the foot print. The bottom perimeter columns of the south face was inside the foot print and above the floors. So the only question is how much of the other columns are inside the foot print/lower perimeter columns.
Will you at least agree to this simple fact?
Of course I'm not saying EVERY perimeter column went inside the building. But enough did. (That would be as one dimensional thinking as a conspiracy theorist.) The evidence is in the lack of perimeter columns seen before the top falls behind the dust cloud. Another is the indisputable fact that columns were laid out like a carpet.
Tell me... Did each floor collapse to the ground then put themselves in nice little rows?
Explain this photo? Why are the perimeter columns together without floors if the top didn't strip the floors off allowing them to pivot over in large sections???
Explain this...
How did that massive column section to the right pivot out and hit the winter garden if it was destroyed floor by floor? It obviously wasn't.
Measure were the column leans out from. The top of the leaning section comes from the impact level WELL after the collapse front passes.
Why are there only a small number of the total columns falling faster than the debris cloud if the top was totally destroyed at the impact level?
I for one don't think you are dishonest, if you were really a twoofer you wouldn't have stayed so polite and contained for so long. You've been quite civil so far.
The reason why some people are suspicious is that you seem to jump from one CT claim to the other, once one is resolved you jump straight to the other. It's as though you want there to be something wrong with the collapse. But that may be just because all of what you know about the collapse is from what you've read from CT sites, so no wonder you were confused. Maybe you're just trying to test every one of those CT claims for yourself, which is I think a very intelligent thing to do.
Now, that said, If you have the time (I know you're being bombarded), could you address the crush up thing, we haven't resolved the matter yet.
I'm German, so my reality is probably even more different.
Note that the posters around here are still way more patient with 9/11 conspiracy theorists than the general population in the US, bar the truthers themselves.
The top of the lower section. Why? Because its too high up to be the bottom of the top section. It would have disconnected first and been past the dust cloud already. It doesn't matter how quick the frame rate is. Frame rate doesn't make a column fall slower than a dusty cloud.
It's the small lines stuck together like a column tree on the right of the dust cloud...
First, you are starting from a false premise. The parts of two faces are ALREADY behind the lower section before it even starts to fall. You ignore the fact that the top is pivoted with one face leaning inward and another out. It pivoted from the middle and not the corner remember? That means at least one full face and the bottom of another were inside the building when it fell. You can't dispute this simple fact. The north face was ALREADY completely inside the foot print. The bottom perimeter columns of the south face was inside the foot print and above the floors. So the only question is how much of the other columns are inside the foot print/lower perimeter columns.
Will you at least agree to this simple fact?
Of course I'm not saying EVERY perimeter column went inside the building. But enough did. (That would be as one dimensional thinking as a conspiracy theorist.) The evidence is in the lack of perimeter columns seen before the top falls behind the dust cloud. Another is the indisputable fact that columns were laid out like a carpet.
Tell me... Did each floor collapse to the ground then put themselves in nice little rows?
Explain this photo? Why are the perimeter columns together without floors if the top didn't strip the floors off allowing them to pivot over in large sections???
Explain this...
How did that massive column section to the right pivot out and hit the winter garden if it was destroyed floor by floor? It obviously wasn't.
Measure were the column leans out from. The top of the leaning section comes from the impact level WELL after the collapse front passes.
Why are there only a small number of the total columns falling faster than the debris cloud if the top was totally destroyed at the impact level?
They're not threatened by it, they are annoyed/frustrated/dismayed/infuriated by it. That and the fact that some folks so easily and completely believe its nonsense without so much as a second thought.
I am Canadian as well, but never had any trouble accepting that 9/11 was as it appeared to be. The collapse of the WTC towers looked about what I'd expect the uncontrolled collapse of some major structures to look like.
Of course, I had the advantage of being home that day and seeing almost the entire story unfold live on television. I spent that day, and the next two, doing little else but sitting on my couch and watching the news, from as many stations/networks as I could get.
Could the impression of crush up be made by the fact that we're seeing in Sizz's PP file and the video I posted the North side, while it was the South side floors which failed first, making the structure slightly tilt toward the South?
I think we should be looking at the South side to fully appreciate how the collapse began, the North side could be misleading.
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