New DVD – Steven Jones, PhD: “Nano-Thermite”

[bill smith]

Unless it presents something over and above Harrit et al's fatally flawed Bentham paper, it's already in shreds.



It's "chain of custody". And you're presenting a false dilemma: either Harrit and Jones are dishonest, or the samples are representative. There are many other possibilities. The methodology by which the dust samples were collected is, as far as we know, laughably poor, meaning that there is no reason to suppose they are representative of dust generated by the collapse. The people supplying them to Jones and Harrit may have tampered with the samples; we know little or nothing about them. The samples may have been accidentally mixed up, or contaminated by bad handling.

And, finally, no, we don't know for certain that Jones and Harrit are honest men. Jones was forced to retire for attempting to bypass the peer review process, an important safeguard of honesty in science, and continues to come up with ways to circumvent it. This is suggestive, if no more, of dishonest intentions.

Dave

What's really to the point Dave is whether there really is an abundance of nano-sized particles in the dust. For as we all know the making of nano-sized particles, especialy explosive/incendiary ones is only in the purview of the military. So the presence of the particles combined with even a reasonable chain of custody will tend to validate the dust as being what Jones and Harrit say it is.

 

[SteveAustin]

While the chain of custody has been raised as an issue in the past, it is not the only critique, nor is it close to being the most damning. Sunstealer in particular has written a well argued critique based firmly on the data Harrit, Jones, and the others provided.

If Jones at the rest can establish the chain of custody, then that's good, but that still fails to address fundamental problems in the findings themselves. That just means we can be more sure that the chips were indeed from the WTC dust. And many of the existent critiques already presumed that.

Where did sunstealer publish his findings?

 

[Dave Rogers]

What's really to the point Dave is whether there really is an abundance of nano-sized particles in the dust. For as we all know the making of nano-sized particles, especialy explosive/incendiary ones is only in the purview of the military.

Rubbish. You know absolutely nothing about nanotechnology, and it shows. There wasn't an abundance of anything particularly unexpected in the dust, and nanotechnology is in no way limited to the military.

Dave

ETA: And, of course, there isn't even a reasonable chain of custody.

 

[TruthersLie]

Where did sunstealer publish his findings?

He published them in somthing JUST AS VALID as any bentham open chemical physics journal...

And the head editors/mods here don't quit in disgust because something got written w/out them knowing about it...
and they don't accept completely made up computer gibberish as peer reviewed either.

massive swing and a miss.
we have some lovely parting gifts for you though.

 

[A W Smith]

Wakey wakey Rip Van Winkle

Sorry. I don't normally wake up this early.

Yes you overslept and missed the pre-debunking on 11th April 2009,
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4607894&postcount=1694


You can go back to sleep now.

 

[~enigma~]

Not too sure I understand. Steven Jones is proven to be a scientific fraud so why is anything coming from him trusted by anybody except idiots that want to be "frauded"?

 

[Arus808]

Where did sunstealer publish his findings?

doesn't matter since the paper by jones was never peer reviewed and was only published because the publisher got paid to publish it.

 

[bill smith]

Rubbish. You know absolutely nothing about nanotechnology, and it shows. There wasn't an abundance of anything particularly unexpected in the dust, and nanotechnology is in no way limited to the military.

Dave

ETA: And, of course, there isn't even a reasonable chain of custody.

Who would make nano-sized explosive particles with the chemical signature of Thermite other than the military ? Nobody could afford it for a start. Besides, the mere fact that the presence of Thermite was theorised at the WTC long before it was found and empiricallly proven is also a striong validation of Jones et al. I doubt that the chain of custody issue will be a big problem.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Not too sure I understand. Steven Jones is proven to be a scientific fraud so why is anything coming from him trusted by anybody except idiots that want to be "frauded"?

Because, basically, that's the ad hominem fallacy. Whether or not Steven Jones is guilty of academic fraud in the past is irrelevant; this particular piece of work can be dismissed on the grounds that the data presented fails to support the conclusions drawn.

Dave

 

[TruthersLie]

Who would make nano-sized explosive particles with the chemical signature of Thermite other than the military ? Nobody could afford it for a start. Besides, the mere fact that the presence of Thermite was theorised at the WTC long before it was found and empiricallly proven is also a striong validation of Jones et al. I doubt tht the chain of custody issue will be a big problem.

truther LIE bill s.

Thermite WAS NOT FOUND.
THERMATE was NOT FOUND
nanothermite was not found.

Iron oxide (you know rust), aluminum (only everywhere in the towers, cladded in the stuff) make up thermite...

where are the KNOWN byproducts of any thermitic reaction in the dust? Oh there are NONE.

stop with the LIE.

try again. Even jones has dropped the thermate claim, now is focusing on nanosuperduper I'll clean your room, walk your dog, make dinner thermite.

Bill you really should tell your group home staff that your meds aren't working anymore... I'd suggest haldol or lithium bicarbonate...or up the dosage

 

[~enigma~]

Because, basically, that's the ad hominem fallacy. Whether or not Steven Jones is guilty of academic fraud in the past is irrelevant; this particular piece of work can be dismissed on the grounds that the data presented fails to support the conclusions drawn.

Dave

Fallacy nothing. Once a fraud, always a fraud unless of course there is a reason you think there is even one iota of legitimacy this time.

ETA - an ad hom is not pointing out his past fraud, maybe it would be if I were to dismiss his fraud because of his past stupidity about jesus walking america.

ETA 2 - Not academic fraud...read post 18 again, it was pure scientific fraud in spite of data showing otherwise.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Who would make nano-sized explosive particles with the chemical signature of Thermite other than the military ? Nobody could afford it for a start.

Rubbish, again. Nanoparticles can be synthesised by colloid chemistry using easily available chemicals and equipment; I've seen it done. It's simple chemical synthesis that could be carried out in a high school chemistry lab, given the required expertise, and there's nothing too rare about that. And this is all moot because nothing that would require even that level of expertise and equipment was found in the dust samples.

Dave

 

[~enigma~]

truther LIE bill s.

Thermite WAS NOT FOUND.
THERMATE was NOT FOUND
nanothermite was not found.

Iron oxide (you know rust), aluminum (only everywhere in the towers, cladded in the stuff) make up thermite...

where are the KNOWN byproducts of any thermitic reaction in the dust? Oh there are NONE.

stop with the LIE.

try again. Even jones has dropped the thermate claim, now is focusing on nanosuperduper I'll clean your room, walk your dog, make dinner thermite.

Bill you really should tell your group home staff that your meds aren't working anymore... I'd suggest haldol or lithium bicarbonate...or up the dosage

Haldol Decanoate is longer acting

 

[Crazytimes]

Besides, the mere fact that the presence of Thermite was theorised at the WTC long before it was found

Why do you think this is ? Why do you think thermite was theorised before it wasnt found ?

 

[bill smith]

Rubbish, again. Nanoparticles can be synthesised by colloid chemistry using easily available chemicals and equipment; I've seen it done. It's simple chemical synthesis that could be carried out in a high school chemistry lab, given the required expertise, and there's nothing too rare about that. And this is all moot because nothing that would require even that level of expertise and equipment was found in the dust samples.



Dave

Do you mean that no massively expnensive specialised equipment is needed to grind say Anthrax down to weaponised nano-levels ?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Do you mean that no massively expnensive specialised equipment is needed to grind say Anthrax down to weaponised nano-levels ?

It's incredible, he just picks out words at random and types them in. I have absolutely no idea what "weaponised nano-level Anthrax" might be, but it sounds really scary, doesn't it? I don't think anthrax would be very effective in severing steel columns, though.

Dave

 

[A W Smith]

Steve-0 has zero, again-0

Where did sunstealer publish his findings?

right here at the JREF. Tell us steve-0. what does sunstealer get wrong? Be specific now.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4607894&postcount=1694

where did jones send his samples for "independent review" Steve-0? Oh that right. he didn't. He just cut a check for $800 to publish in a sham vanity journal where two people have already quit in disgust.

What was the dust sample chain of custody from the artists apartmemt window sill where the artists boyfriend did welding of sculptures all the way to the lab steve-0?

Where are the yet to be tested jones samples today? And why are they not shared steve-0?

How can an alleged "uberthermite" coating a few microns thick heat up a steel section to failure several inches thick steve-0?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Besides, the mere fact that the presence of Thermite was theorised at the WTC long before it was found and empiricallly proven is also a striong validation of Jones et al.

The WTC was made of steel and aluminium, and surrounded by oxygen, as Jones knew long before he started making up his thermite fantasies. It would have been difficult not to find something he could pretend was thermite. All it proves is that it's a well-prepared lie.

Dave

 

[~enigma~]

All it proves is that it's a well-prepared lie.

From a known scientific fraud. Strange how that conclusion can be reached without a debate that tends to elevate his nonsense to that of a scientific or intellectual equal level with real science.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

As I have said about Harrit and Jones's paper, the source of the publication are only relevant in answering the claims about peer review. The flaws of the Jones, Harrit, et. al. paper exist regardless where it's published at. Likewise with Sunstealer; the fact he posted his critique here does not affect the validity of the critique; it stands on its own merits. Like the thermite chips papers fail on the lack of merits.