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New Disclosures on Benghazi

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Oy Vey

Oh, and then there is this little nugget (connect THAT dot).

Then there is this little nugget (and it lacks the charming ad hominem of which RandFan is well versed)

The former chief security officer for the American Embassy in Libya on Wednesday told a House committee investigating the fatal attack last month on a diplomatic compound in Benghazi that his request to extend the deployment of an American military team was thwarted by the State Department’s Bureau of Diplomatic Security.

Eric Nordstrom.
 
I posted the definition. I'm not justifying anything Obama did. I'm not saying your arguments are wrong because you are morally inconsistent. I'm saying you are being morally inconsistent.

  • Your argument is wrong because you are morally inconsistent is fallacy.
  • Your argument is wrong AND you are morally inconsistent isn't.
Also, IMO, your lack of moral consistency make me think the basis for your outrage is politics and nothing more.


Hmmmmmmmm.......

Cool Deletions Bro. they make me want to say Hmmmmmm!

lolz
 
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Still not an ad hominem.

I think I said he was attacking the arguer and not the argument.

It doesn't even rise to the level of an ad hom. It is just childish insults.

Thanks, though, for posting.
 
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Oh, you are admitting that you are attacking the arguer, not the argument.
I'm admitting that your position is morally inconsistent. There is nothing wrong with me attacking your ideas. And it is your ideas I'm attacking. They don't ring true to me for the reasons I've said. Moral inconsistency.

12. “Address the argument, not the arguer." Having your opinion, claim or argument challenged, doubted or dismissed is not attacking the arguer.E8
That said I'll withdraw any claims about you being morally inconsistent. My beef is with the GOP and the fake outrage they have been ginning up.
 
Then there is this little nugget (and it lacks the charming ad hominem of which RandFan is well versed)

The former chief security officer for the American Embassy in Libya on Wednesday told a House committee investigating the fatal attack last month on a diplomatic compound in Benghazi that his request to extend the deployment of an American military team was thwarted by the State Department’s Bureau of Diplomatic Security.

Eric Nordstrom.

Which, again, is something he already told Congress at a hearing last fall.

And at that hearing, he also said:


Much has been made about physical resource requests, and I’d like to address that issue. From the start, I was impressed with the plans that would send our team into Libya—a massive show of well-organized resources. I felt that resource requests would be considered seriously and fastidiously by DS and the Department. I believe that the vast majority of my requests were considered in that manner:

  • 170,00 worth of closed circuit televisions and a public address system was approved in a matter of days;
  • More than half a million dollars of field expedient security upgrades including upgrades to the perimeter wall, vehicles gates and devices to control access to our compound in Tripoli, such as delta barriers and drop arms was supplied;
  • More than $100,000 of physical security upgrades were completed in Benghazi, including upgrades to the perimeter wall, vehicle gates, drop arms, vehicle barriers and guard booths was conducted;
  • Upgraded perimeter light for our compounds in Tripoli and Benghazi was approved and deployed;
  • Uniforms and equipment for our 125 member guard force and newly created local body guard team were supplied;
  • 200 personal protective vests and helmets for our guards and U.S. staff in Tripoli and Benghazi was delivered; and,
  • 25 armored vehicles were shipped to us during the course of the 10 months that I was at post.

Other upgrades requested such as grillwork for windows on our residential compound in Tripoli, upgraded entry doors for compound buildings, and residential protective window film to prevent injuries from flying glass would be included under a subsequent project to construct an interim Embassy compound. That project was scheduled to begin in August/September 2012.

Given the fluid nature of the political and security environment in Libya my preference was to maintain a stable number of security personnel. When I arrived in September, we had 37 State Department and Defense Department Personnel in Tripoli. In Benghazi, we had eight DS agents. As these security professionals were focused on crisis and stabilization work, I understood that because of the nature of their work, their time in Libya would have be limited, assuming we saw a general improvement in the security environment. After about four months, all of us at post agreed that the security situation in Libya had improved, at least temporarily, and we adjusted our security posture appropriately as did many other diplomatic missions operation in Libya.

[...]

In my mind, the primary issue was maintaining U.S. security personnel in Libya (the SST and DS agents) for a sufficient amount of time to enable the full training and deployment, including mentorship, of the local bodyguard unit. Given the fragile security environment and the increasing size of the mission, post revised our initial bodyguard numbers upward from an initial number of 24 shortly after I departed post. It is my understanding that DS fully supported and funded this expansion.


[...]

As I departed Libya at the end of July, I understood that DS was in the process of identifying continued DS agent TDY support to maintain the staffing levels requested by post in early July. Specifically, post requested a minimum of 13 TDY security personnel for Tripoli to provide movement and static security support plus 2 TDY agents to act as Assistant RSOs until the RSO could grow to 5 full-time positions. Post requested DS continue to fill the De cember 2011 staffing level, and maintain at least a minimum of 3 TDY agents for Benghazi. It was my understanding and the understanding of my successor that TDY staffing levels in Tripoli would be reduced as our bodyguard unit expanded. When I departed on July 26, 2012, the mission had the following DS staffing: 3 permanent RSOs, 4 TDY High Trained field office DS agents, 4 MSD DS Agents focused on bodyguard training, 16 local Libyan bodyguards, and 3 TDY DS agents in Benghazi. The 16 member SST was scheduled for a phased departure by mid-August. Finally, there was on-going planning to retain 6 of the 16 SST members in Libya to engage in more traditional bilateral Department of Defense training activities with the Libyan Ministry of Defense.

I’m confident that the committee will conclude that Department of State, Diplomatic Security Service, and Mission Libya officers conducted themselves professionally and with careful attention to managing people and budgets in a way that reflects the gravity of their task. I’m proud of the work that our team accomplished in Libya under extraordinarily difficult circumstances.
 
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Is there a particular burning question you would ask that might untangle things for you? What would that question be and who would you ask it of? (Assuming you are going to get a full and honest answer, of course.)

I ask because I don't really see what the conspiracy is even supposed to be about.

Didn't Rand Paul say something on some right wackjob show about the administration running guns in the area?

And Phil Valentine (small time right radio wacko from Nashville) says the main target of the attack was the CIA Safehouse near the embassy where torture takes place. If Obama admits the true events of the attack, it will show that he had knowledge of the safehouse and therefore knows about/condones torture. Which of course he can't do right before the election.
 
Except he did attack the argument. I even highlighted it for you.
Thank you.

source Ad hominem is very often mistakenly claimed in cases where an argument's opponent attacks its proponent in addition to presenting a valid counterargument. "You're stupid, therefore your argument is invalid" is an ad hominem; "your argument is invalid, therefore you're stupid" (or "Your argument is invalid and you're stupid") is not.
It's against forum rules to attack forum members. Therefore I have withdrawn any personal statements about 16.5 and apologize.
 
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Didn't Rand Paul say something on some right wackjob show about the administration running guns in the area?

Yes.

That's one of the conspiracy theories, that the Obama Administration was secretly funneling arms to Syrian rebels via Benghazi, and that that's what Ambassador Stevens was doing in Benghazi the night he was killed. It's been all over the right-wing echo chamber:

http://townhall.com/columnists/kati...-secret-gunrunning-program-n1580051/page/full

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/for...us-running-guns-syrian-rebels-benghazi-cia-no

And Phil Valentine (small time right radio wacko from Nashville) says the main target of the attack was the CIA Safehouse near the embassy where torture takes place. If Obama admits the true events of the attack, it will show that he had knowledge of the safehouse and therefore knows about/condones torture. Which of course he can't do right before the election.

That's another, different conspiracy theory that's also been bouncing around the right-wing echo chamber. And, of course, there's also the theory that Obama let it happen because he has an ideological soft spot for shariah.

No, really.
 
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What makes the gunrunning charge amusing is that a lot of people in the GOP are blasting Obama for not doing enough to topple the Assad regime. I guess it is "throw any crap at Obama and hope something sticks" time.
 
What makes the gunrunning charge amusing is that a lot of people in the GOP are blasting Obama for not doing enough to topple the Assad regime. I guess it is "throw any crap at Obama and hope something sticks" time.
Well, let's not forget he's a Kenyan born radical Christian/Muslim.

There's got to be something he did wrong, right?

A little levity folks, no one here has made any such argument.
 
ANT, you've done an admirable job. But I think it is almost time to conclude that 16.5 is suffering from Obama Derangement Syndrome and is impervious to the facts.

I guess I'm just an optimist. :)

Meanwhile, back in the real world:

n his testimony, Hicks said that after this condemnation of Rice, a State Department official began criticising his job performance. After leaving Libya, he was given a temporary job that he regarded as a demotion.

Patrick Ventrell, the acting deputy press secretary at the State Department, said in an email that the failure of Hicks to find a satisfactory post was because he had cut short his Libyan assignment and that he was competing with colleagues of the same grade for future assignments. Ventrell said Hicks enjoyed the same pay and rank as before, and that a temporary post had been found for him pending possible reassignment elsewhere.

"The department has not and will not retaliate against Mr Hicks. As Mr Hicks testified, he decided to shorten his assignment in Libya following the attacks, in part due to understandable family reasons, and that he has followed 'standard' employment processes," Ventrell said.

"Since foreign service officer assignments work on annual cycles, by shortening his assignment Mr Hicks was in the position of finding an 'off-cycle assignment'. In such situations, it is not uncommon to have difficulty finding a suitable assignment for some time.

"However, the department worked with him to find a suitable temporary assignment and succeeded. Mr Hicks still receives the same salary and he has the same employment status and rank as before. Per standard procedure, Mr Hicks recently submitted a preference list for his next assignment and is under consideration along with other foreign service employees."

The Pentagon disputed Hicks' claims, too, saying that there was nothing it could have done to mount a rescue in time. Pentagon press secretary George Little, briefing reporters on Wednesday, said: "The fact remains – as we have repeatedly indicated – that United States forces could not have arrived in time to mount a rescue of those Americans killed or injured that night."
 
The Pentagon disputed Hicks' claims, too, saying that there was nothing it could have done to mount a rescue in time. Pentagon press secretary George Little, briefing reporters on Wednesday, said: "The fact remains – as we have repeatedly indicated – that United States forces could not have arrived in time to mount a rescue of those Americans killed or injured that night."

Did they know how much time they had for a rescue or how long a siege on the embassy would last? What if it had lasted for another 24 hours should there have been help sent right away? (I don't know if it wasn't)
 
Did they know how much time they had for a rescue or how long a siege on the embassy would last?

There was no siege on the embassy.

What if it had lasted for another 24 hours should there have been help sent right away? (I don't know if it wasn't)

Help was being sent, and sent right away.

"Midnight to 2 a.m. -- Panetta and other senior leaders discuss possible options for further violence if it were to break out. Panetta gives verbal orders for Marine anti-terrorist teams from Rota, Spain, to prepare to deploy to Tripoli and Benghazi. Panetta also orders a special operations force team training in Croatia and an additional special operations force team in the United States to prepare to deploy to a staging base in southern Italy."

If the fighting had lasted for another 24 hours, then those forces would have arrived in time to assist. However, the fighting actually ended before they could arrive (which is what the Pentagon statement above is reiterating).
 
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Did they know how much time they had for a rescue or how long a siege on the embassy would last? What if it had lasted for another 24 hours should there have been help sent right away? (I don't know if it wasn't)

"We didn't send any military help because after it was all over we learned that if we would have sent help it wouldn't have arrived in time"
 
I still have hope this could turn into a scandal. The first time I heard the phrase, "CIA Annex" I thought, "Oh, boy - black site."

Still waiting.
 
"We didn't send any military help because after it was all over we learned that if we would have sent help it wouldn't have arrived in time"

The giant, glaring flaw in your statement is that military help was actually sent.

The fighting was all over before it had a chance to arrive.
 
Sounds like Greg Hicks has a huge target on his back.

The State Department and the Pentagon released responses today about him.
 
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