But people anticipate that something is about to happen. They will interpret any change, or imagine that something is happening.
Do you acknowledge that this can happen?
Yes, I do think that can happen. It wasn't applicable in the situation I described to you, and I have tested it with other people throughout my experiences with this technique. Energy healing is real; it just requires an experienced practitioner to do it.
And this didn't cause you to stop and consider what it is you are doing??
When the client indicates they want to stop, I'll stop. I expected this reaction from this client because I was manipulating her kundalini energy, which is always going to cause a noticeable reaction. She was pleased with the results.
Come, now: What is it that makes you so afraid of revealing these things? If we learned these things, should we be as afraid as you are?
If you knew what I knew, then you would be afraid of this: When you can "see" the invisible world, then the inhabitants of the invisible world can see that you see them. This makes them take notice of you. Now you will have TWO dimensions to pay attention to, becuase both worlds will be vying for your attention. I'm on that threshold now. The thing is, you can't stay focused on two dimensions at the same time, all of the time.
That may be so. But do you acknowledge that there are many, many accounts of alien abductions?
Yes, there are.
How do you know this? How can you just declare that you know what really happened to them?
Because I've seen the elemental realms with my own eyes. I've also read the accounts of other seers, who describe the same things. What's happening to these people who "see" these things is this: Their
assemblage point has shifted to another position, which allows them to access another dimension of reality; the particular dimension they tuned in to was an elemental one (thus the sitings of fairies, gnomes, and other elemental spirits). These are the same spirits one would encounter if using Nature Magick correctly. (any experienced Wiccan or Druid will attest to having seen these creatures while calling corners, or summoning the elementals).
I didn't ask what it would take. I asked when you will try it. When, exactly?
First attempt was a failure.
You don't need to teach me. You just need to show me.
I'm not sure that it's possible to show you, or any skeptic.
Does that mean that you accept being tested?
Anonymously through the forum I will submit to any test you like. I will not reveal my identity to you though.
If it is not based on your psychic abilities, then it has no bearing on this discussion.
I wanted to insert my intellectual idea into the public record, prior to my attempt to access the future.
How is this different from accessing the memories of another person?
It isn't, really. How do you think it is possible for me to access another person's memories?
That is testable. Do you agree to such a test?
There are plenty of people that are practicing shamanism these days. When we attract a few more trustworthy students of shamanism to this discussion, perhaps we could arrange a group demonstration. In the end, though, we will still reach the conclusion that
you don't see anything that we are seeing: ghosts, "energy," and all that woo-stuff. Aren't you interested in the techniques we use to "see"?
If my perception is backed by evidence, then it does.
Can you define "evidence" in such a way that it does not depend upon your
observation of a particular circumstance? What I'm telling you is this: My reality is different from yours, and that does not make either of our realities any less, "real." You will always, I repeat, ALWAYS be able to find a "reasonable" explanation for all of my magick tricks becuase your mind will not allow magick into your reality. Your mind will make my magick appear as an illusion, because it would shatter your world to see magick actually happen.
If I expect life to give me a Mercedes, I get one?
If you abolish all doubt that such a thing isn't possible, and regularly put positive thought/feeling into your having a Mercedes, then yes.
Now you are contradicting yourself.
It works that way. Let's agree to disagree until we can go deeper into this.
Excellent. Will you be tested for this, also?
Yes, if I'm tested I'll be looking for this to happen.
You were crystal clear about being able to see a ghost:
Don't contradict yourself. You will get caught.
They're not all ghosts, that's all I'm saying. I don't yet know how to tell the difference; all I see are bodies of light.
If you don't cheat, why would you have to think about being tested under controlled conditions?
It's a waste of your time if I know that the conditions under which I will be asked to perform will yield no results. What your organization seems to be seeking is verification of supernatural phenomenon, and I'm offerring you a way of verifying that.
Which magick masters have you read?
First and foremost, the Tao Te Ching; the teachings of Buddha, endless books on shamanism including Terrence Mckenna's web site, Golden Dawn, Rosicrucian, Enochian & Kabbalah magick; Helena Blavatsky (including her pupils), Aleister Crowley, Levi, Ibn Arabi, Zoroaster, etc...
This list could go on and on. My favorite book for teaching magick to people will always be,
Creative Visualization by Shakti Gawain.
But they all say that, too. Why should I read your book?
I don't know why. Tell me more about what you've read, and most importantly what you are
at odds with in the teachings that you have read, and I can direct you towards the teachings that will help you take the next step. Personally, I would start you with the Golden Dawn teaching; Liber 9 will get you started in the correct direction. Reading shamanism along side magickal studies will help you to shift your assemblage point to where it needs to be, otherwise your attempts will seem fruitless. (I use the Golden Dawn not because it is the best, but because it is widely available on the internet).
Even the books of Aleister Crowley can spell it out for you if you take a critical approach to researching the techniques and results of magickal workings. From what I've seen you ask, you're approaching this conversation as if you had no prior knowledge of how magick works. Your questions about,
time are a dead give away, for instance. No one who knows the first thing about the other side would question the non-linear time aspect of that dimension; it's one of the first things you learn about, and certainly the first thing you notice when you step into that dimension. In books on real magick this is explained in detail, because you have to understand how to
move around in a dimension with no linear time.
If you have done your research into magick, my apologies for the assumption that you have not. During our discussion, though, I'm explaining a lot to you that is explained completely in the elementary books on the subject.
Of course I would scrutinize it! Why do you see that as a problem?
This goes into the "assemblage point" conversation. What I'm telling you is that you have to make a shift in the way you assemble reality in your mind in order for you to not ignore what it is I would be showing you.
Bull. Magick is not science. Don't try to prop up your claims by calling what you do "science".
It's science to me, becuase I understand the forces at work, recognize them for their characteristics, and know how to manipulate them. It is not science to you becuase you do not recognize these forces, or even acknowledge their existence. We are on two different levels of understanding concerning the topic of magick.
Don't give me this condescending "Oh, you wouldn't be able to see it anyway" crap. Don't you understand that, if you were able to do what you claim to be able to do, it would be evident? There would not be any need for interpretation, it would be clear as day.
Don't you understand that "reality is an illusion," is the important aspect of this conundrum you are facing in regards to understanding the visible aspects of magickal workings? In your reality there is no magick - there is a reasonable explanation for everything that happens; this is an illusion created by your mind. If you want to see magick, either you or the person performing the magick must take you OUT of that mode of thinking and put you INTO a mode of thinking that will allow you to see something magickal happen and not have your mind rearrange the appearance of the situation in order to convince you that there is a reasonable explanation for it. This is called, "shifting the assemblage point," in shamanism.
You even admit it here:
There you go! If it is unmistakeable, then you can do it under controlled conditions.
I have shifted my assemblage point, and therefore can see things that you can not. That is what is being "verified" by my abilities to see ghosts.
Nonsense. Either you can do it, or you can't.
Another example of why I asked you, "have you done your research into magick," because this is the reason why witches work in covens - you need to be in the presence of people who are not projecting
doubt into the mix. Magick 101.
Then how do you know they have these abilities??
They are educating people here on Earth as to how to attain these powers. For an example, see the Teaching of Abraham (Jerry and Esther Hicks), or The Temple of The Presence; both of these schools of thought are examples of spirits from the other side educating people on Earth as to how they can use their abilities. These are both examples of souls who have learned the lessons here on Earth, and returned to communicate their lessons with us.
Ah, you believe in reincarnation, too.
I have knowledge of reincarnation that was acquired through my explorations of the other dimensions. When you take reincarnation into account, the whole idea of reality begins to make more sense.
Who were they? Names, please.
We'll start with Saint Germain.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/csg/index.htm
I have read quite a bit, thank you very much. Now, I need to see it.
Please let me know what magickal systems you understand well through your reading, it will make my explanations to you easier to phrase becuase then I could put them into a context that you have already assembled.
Don't tell me what my path is.
Your path can be derived from the nature of your motivations. I'll keep my assumptions about you quiet, if that's what you'd like.
Show me first.
Surely, you can see why this is a reasonable demand? Before I engage in a lengthy education under your tutelage, you surely can show me that you can do what you claim to be able to do??
I beg of you to read Carlos Castaneda if you need to understand the relationship between someone who knows magick, and those that do not believe in it. It all goes back to the assemblage point, and how you construct the reality you are experiencing. The first thing that I have to do is shift your assemblage point, which is why I mentioned the meditation. Success with the meditation will cause a small shift in your assemblage point, and then you will be able to see things differently. After that, you might not even need to see anything that I have to show you!
Ah, so God is a sentient being?
God is a sentient being; just as we are, but multiplied by infinity.
I am not interested in your opinion. I am interested in those physical manifestations.
Show me.
We're going to have to get into a deep discussion about the assemblage point, and how it plays in here. You keep asking the same questions, "Show me, show me, show me," and I keep saying: EVEN IF I DID, YOU WOULD NOT "SEE" IT - because what you see, and what is
really happening are
two different things. Life is an illusion, and the illusion is different to all of us.
Do you understand that what you are describing here is the perfect recipe for fraud?
"Suspend your rationality, and I shall show you wonders"
What if it is necessary for you to suspend your rationality in order to be freed from a mental prison that prevents you from experiencing reality? What I am proposing is that
you live in an illusory world where reality behaves only as you expect it to. This is what the Buddhists are talking about, "life is an illusion." To release from the illusion you have to take some steps towards enlightenment; the latte experiment was my way of teaching you the first step, and it is a mandatory one if you are to get what you are asking. If you don't wrestle with your doubt, then you will never see magick as anything except fraud. That's the way the illusion works.
No, it is not. It is, however, HIGHLY against my beliefs in karma to signifigantly, and positively change the belief system of a person
against their will by demonstrating to them something which they cannot explain given their current understanding of reality. If my audience is
willing to change their belief system through their own actions then it would be different, but so far you have refused to take the first step. As a teacher, I would ask my student at this point, "what is it deep down inside of your mind that makes you afraid of accepting that there are entities, and forces, which you cannot see with your eyes?" If you examine that fear in deep meditation you will begin to wrestle with the "guardian" that protects you from seeing reality as it is. This guardian was put in place by you to protect you from the aspects of reality which frighten you, such as ghosts, and therefore block them from your view. You ignore it because at one point in time you got a glimpse of something you couldn't rationalize and it frightened you, so you block out those things you can't explain. If you shift your assemblage point, then you will face that fear head on again - seeing the frightening reality of the way things really are. Magick, just like shamanism, is about removing the fears of reality, and then accepting reality for what it is. During this process you get to see the invisible parts of reality, as well as other dimensions of reality. Your assemblage point is stuck in the position of, "reason."
Meditate daily on something that you want. When you hold the image in your head, provide it with positive, affirming energy - (which should feel, "good" like a
first-kiss, or
thankfullness for something you love); continue this until you get what you are meditating on - it may arrive by any means. This exercise will dislodge the assemblage point from its current position. This is step one to witnessing anything magickal. I will start a new thread concerning the topic of the assemblage point, and its importance to this discussion.
Thank you for your continued interest in this discussion.
