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New 9/11 Poll

Cyphermage said:
Well, there are various degrees of "inside job." The government could have done it. They could have known about it and figured it fit in with their plans. They could have infiltrated the organization carrying it out and have been in a position to influence things like timing and choice of targets. Israel could have known about it and decided not to tell us. Etc...
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It came out pretty soon afterward in the papers that Israel had told us. But Israel tells us a lot of things.
 
epepke said:
It came out pretty soon afterward in the papers that Israel had told us. But Israel tells us a lot of things.
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Things like "Please send us more missiles and aviation fuel. We've used ours up bombing civilians in Lebanon."
 
Cyphermage said:
Things like "Please send us more missiles and aviation fuel. We've used ours up bombing civilians in Lebanon."
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Kinda have to agree with steverino here. Where were comments like this when Hezbollah was sending rockets into Isreal on a daily basis, intentionally targetting civillian centers?

The difference in casualty numbers is only a matter of training and technology, not a reflection of intent.
 
Huntsman said:
Kinda have to agree with steverino here. Where were comments like this when Hezbollah was sending rockets into Isreal on a daily basis, intentionally targetting civillian centers?

The difference in casualty numbers is only a matter of training and technology, not a reflection of intent.
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Huntsman and Steverino

To play Devil's advocate for a moment, hasn't it already been reported and established that Israel has gotten resupply from the US for various military materiel? More than one news story on that in the last week.

Cyphermage's attribution of IAF intent to bomb civilians is rather backward logic, in terms of cause and effect. But don't forget, that has been the effect of some of the air attacks. To add to the confusion, there are an unknown percentage of "civilians" who are active in Hezbollah in said events. I doubt any of us will really know what that percentage is.

Let's not play ostrich about what is going on over there. Israel has escalated the fight, and gets no points for any inherent virtue. For good reasons or ill, they are between a rock and a hard place, and have chosen "fight" over "flight" or "wait for everyone else to do something."

Bombs are falling on more than "combatants." That the Lebanese government is either complicit in, or helpless to stop, the Hezbollah attacks (I find the latter more likely) muddies moral/legal/legitimate waters significantly, as the attacks originating on Lebanese soil appear to be both indiscriminate and of little precision.

The attacks by Hezbollah aren't directly relevant to cyphermage's comment about US military resupply to Israel. Reprisals are hardly uncontroversial, nor are reprisals a "clean hands" action, if that is the excuse. The language in the UN articles pertaining to war, and Geneva cast a negatie pall over reprisals. The Hezbollah attacks are related in the general sense of "the war isn't over yet." I suspect that continuation of various attacks in and around Lebanon are linked to continued attacks in and around Israel.

Parking one's partisan views, and emotion, at the door makes for a more informed discussion. Put another way, Steverino and Huntsman, he gotcha.

Troll 2

you guys 0.

DR
 
Just to point out, I did not take a stand on Isreal's actions, nor offer my opinion on them. What I find distasteful is the people who are now immediately criticisizing Isreal for it's actions, demonizing them, essentially, while for years they have ignored the intentional targetting of civillians by numerous terrorist groups, Hezbollah primary among them.

Where were the comments about Hezbollah telling Iran and/or Syria "Please send us more rockets and suicide bombers, the ones you sent have been used up."

And I'm not talking about Hezbollah attacks since the aggression started, they've been doing this off and on for years while Isreal actually withdrew from the areas they had formorly occupied in Lebanon. Where was the outrage then?

I get tired of it being "par for the course", and uncommented when others do it, but suddenly it's one of the seven deadlys when the U.S. and/or it's allies are involved. The double standard makes me sick.
 
Huntsman said:
The double standard makes me sick.
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1. Politically, you have to stay on the moral high ground to win.

2. I understand how you feel, but I want you to understand that if you spoke Arabic, you'd feel the same way for a completely different reason, valid or not from your present point of view.

DR
 
There's plenty of threads about this topic in the politics forum...

-Andrew
 
Huntsman said:
Just to point out, I did not take a stand on Isreal's actions, nor offer my opinion on them. What I find distasteful is the people who are now immediately criticisizing Isreal for it's actions, demonizing them, essentially, while for years they have ignored the intentional targetting of civillians by numerous terrorist groups, Hezbollah primary among them.

Where were the comments about Hezbollah telling Iran and/or Syria "Please send us more rockets and suicide bombers, the ones you sent have been used up."

And I'm not talking about Hezbollah attacks since the aggression started, they've been doing this off and on for years while Isreal actually withdrew from the areas they had formorly occupied in Lebanon. Where was the outrage then?

I get tired of it being "par for the course", and uncommented when others do it, but suddenly it's one of the seven deadlys when the U.S. and/or it's allies are involved. The double standard makes me sick.
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The root cause of the problems in the Middle East is Israel's occupation of Syrian, Lebanese, and Palestinian land.

This war was clearly planned by Israel well in advance, and the absurd excuse that it was a response to two of their soldiers being captured, parroted endlessly by the pro-Israel western media, is laughable. Israel holds thousands of people, including woman and children, prisoner, without charges, indefinitely, without due process. Israel is a prolific torturer in the region. Yet, a minor border incident, of the type both sides have previously engaged in, allegedly justifies invading and destroying another entire country.

Bush and Blair are obviously in on this attempt to provoke Iran and Syria into the Neocon "War on Terror."

Lebanon has a right to defend itself. So far, most of the people Hezbollah has killed in this war have been Israeli soldiers. Most of the people Israel has killed have been civilians, in Israel's usual attempt to punish the uninvolved and blackmail the world into giving it what it wants.

The US resupplying Israel, while paying lip service to a cease fire, as Israel attacks the children of Lebanon with AMERICAN weapons, is the very definition of perfidy.

Israel, in the words of Noam Chomsky, is little more than an "Offshore US Military Base." It exists to destabilize the Arab world, foment war, and through its offensive and outrageous behavior, create an endless supply of anti-Semitic hostility which a certain tribe can bitch about from behind its shroud of victimhood.

Ultra Orthodox Judiasm considers Israel to be blasphemy

As far as Mel Gibson goes, here's a guy who probably watched the war on TV, saw some bombed children being pulled out of a pile of rubble, went to a party, had a few drinks, and in a moment when he was extremely pissed off, said something unkind about the Jews. Why is this even news? Now the massive career-destroying PR machine is attacking him, and keeping the story in the news for weeks, and he's having to eat sh|t with a spoon if he ever wants to work again.

Things like this never happen when people say F--- the Mexicans or F--- the gays or F--- the homeless, which are simply considered rude and uninformed comments, and not cause for a lynching.

I guess some people are just special.
 
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Something that I have pointed out elsewhere about the poll: It was part of a poll that asked respondents a lot of rather silly questions, including whom would they vote for in a Presidential election, Hillary Clinton or Bill Clinton, or if they've ever dropped something on the floor and then eaten it without washing it off first. So they idea that this was "just for grins" may have been planted in the people's minds.
 
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