Neuro-scientists point to basis for link between Creative Genius and Schizophrenia.

[23_Tauri]

So stop saying silly things, then.

Probably a wise move...

 

[Dancing David]

23_Tauri,
It is okay to ask questions, but assertion is different.

here is my anecdotal story, i was an outreach case manager for nine and almost ten years, working with clients with PSMI (persistent and severe mental illness) I did weekly intake assessment, then I was PSR clinician for a year, then a DV counselor for three years and then a crisis counselor for 1.5 years.

In that time I did about 700+ assessment and intake interviews, with about half of them being as a crisis worker.

In that time, I never saw anyone who came in with mild symptoms, they all came in with major symptoms and a failing ability to function.

Did you know that many men who present for heart attacks have had prior heart attacks and just ignored them? This is true for so much of the medical treatment of anything.

People do not come in when things are small, they wait until a crisis.



I am personally very aware of the connection between my depression and creativity, I prefer to live without my symptoms, if that means I am less creative, and do not write ten pages of fiction everyday, that is sad but actually very fine by me.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Of course, the link between creative genius and madness and melancholia has long been known. Now brain scientists think they may have found one neurological basis for this.

This is BBC news story on research carried out by scientists at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, who discovered a similarly low level of dopamine (D2) receptors in the thalamus’ of schizophrenics and highly creative types. They theorise that dopamine filters the amount of information reaching the cortex, and that “it is this barrage of uncensored information that ignites the creative spark.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/10154775.stm

It seems to me to be a continuum. A higher than average level of information passing to the cortex produces greatness, but maybe the problem with schizophrenia is that the flow of information becomes so extreme and dysfunctional that it negates the potential benefits from the associated free flow of ideas.

It raises interesting questions about where we draw the line between what is acceptable in terms of eccentricity, both to the individual and to society, and what is pathological requiring treatment. I worry that the current trend towards the medicalisation of even the slightest quirk of personality – illustrated by the more widespread use of medically-prescribed psychoactive drugs - will lead to a reduction in creativity and the diversity of personality types within the population generally, and a lower level of tolerance of the far out and eccentric.

Any thoughts?

Just one - since conformity to societal norms is the goal of the shrink, more or less, they won't see a downside to the loss of creativity, no matter how many times they listen to 2112/read Anthem.

 

[Dancing David]

Just one - since conformity to societal norms is the goal of the shrink, more or less, they won't see a downside to the loss of creativity, no matter how many times they listen to 2112/read Anthem.

Um where did you find that to the 'goal of the shrink'? I am not talking about Freudian or neo-Freudian therapy as that is not what most psychiatrist do.

mainly they prescribe medications to people who present to them with symptoms, so how do you go from there to 'conforming to societal norms'?

What sort of data do you have to support this belief? Really, where is any sort of evidence to back your statement?

If someone is experiencing hallucinations that frighten them or make them miserable, how is treating that to make them meet a societal norm? It is to reduce the suffering of the presenting patient.

So where is any data that suggest the goal of psychiatry is to force societal norms, other than the ancient fantasy of Szasz? Whose work was never based upon a metric, levels of symptoms, description of symptoms or any data and is highly philosophical. It also has very little relation to modern psychiatry.

 

[Cayvmann]

Um where did you find that to the 'goal of the shrink'? I am not talking about Freudian or neo-Freudian therapy as that is not what most psychiatrist do.

mainly they prescribe medications to people who present to them with symptoms, so how do you go from there to 'conforming to societal norms'?

What sort of data do you have to support this belief? Really, where is any sort of evidence to back your statement?

If someone is experiencing hallucinations that frighten them or make them miserable, how is treating that to make them meet a societal norm? It is to reduce the suffering of the presenting patient.

So where is any data that suggest the goal of psychiatry is to force societal norms, other than the ancient fantasy of Szasz? Whose work was never based upon a metric, levels of symptoms, description of symptoms or any data and is highly philosophical. It also has very little relation to modern psychiatry.

How would you describe these 'symptoms' without comparing to some societal norm? If you are trying to cure these differences, or symptoms, then you are trying to return an individual to some kind of norm, right? Even if normal is a spectrum of proper behaviors.

 

[Dancing David]

How would you describe these 'symptoms' without comparing to some societal norm? If you are trying to cure these differences, or symptoms, then you are trying to return an individual to some kind of norm, right? Even if normal is a spectrum of proper behaviors.

But are those norms defined by society or by the ability of that person to be comfortable and do the things that they chose to do?

That is the main point of assessment and diagnosis, to determine what the person themselves does not want and what they want to change.

You are free to not sleep or more than other people, the only thing that drives people seeking treatment is by and large there own desire to change the way that they feel that their life is going.

There are no sleep police who monitor people and say "You aren't getting enough sleep.’ You are sleeping too much.", the individual makes that choice by themselves in most cases.

Yes there are norms, but the focus of mental health (which is something that a lot of people are not aware of) is functioning , can the individual perform the tasks that they wish, in the environments that they wish.

So if you disagree with and feel that it is a societal norm that is being enforced, then you give an example, and we can discuss it. i would argue that it may not be measured the same way as a blood sugar level or blood pressure, but in this case it is not society that tells the person to get treatment it is the individual.

Many people do not get treatment and are very happy with the symptoms they have. No one forces them to get treatment except in two cases, threatening others and threatening themselves, the standard for 'ability to care for self', is set so high that you literally have to be so unaware you will walk if front of a car to get hospitalized for that. (Please note, i am familiar with mental health law and codes in Illinois and the US, not Europe or other areas.)


They are the ones who say "I am tired all the time.", "I feel sad most of the time."

 

[Clownshoes]

I would like to add that although I have never been "officially" diagnosed with being manic-depressant I fully believe that I have a mild form of it. We have a family history of mental illness on both sides really so the genetic factor is defiantly there.

Ill try to describe it the best I can and also tell you why I choose to not get help or medicate as well as others in similar situations and also why I believe I have it in the first place.

Basically I would describe myself as such because as a kid I was one of the "ADHD generations" where doctors would just throw Adderall and Riddellen at kids. Although ADHD is SEVERELY over diagnosed I can say that my behavior as a kid was defiantly different than most of my classmates and peers. I was very disruptive in classes and was kicked out of multiple schools as a child for behavior problems. Mainly it was my resistance to authority figures that was the problem. Now although lots of people hate authority especially kids, I took it steps further than my classmates and their was a clear difference between my actions and the other kids in the classes especially when it resulted in dangerous actions. I think most of this was due to being misdiagnosed as ADHD when in reality the times when I was disruptive was due to being in an "manic" state.

Now that I'm a young adult in my 20's I can look back and also analyze my moods much better than as a child. I think that the main problem was that yes I was hyper and very disruptive towards teachers in general but the reality is that it was only during certain times. Looking back I think it was because I was literally in a manic state during the times when I felt the need to just rebel and their was NO ONE who could hold me down. Once again this wasn't all the time as the rest of the time I was somewhat introverted and not particularly social although I did maintain friendships.

I think I have a mild case or hypomania as I never thought about suicide or anything like that although I can remember times when the mood swings would cripple my ability to function well, but I was never in danger of harming people or myself. Particularly the depressive episodes in which I would literally stay in bed for days at a time and not want to even go eat. I would describe it as a COMPLETE loss of interest in ANYTHING at all. It wouldn't matter if I was a billionaire and could do anything or go anywhere in the world, during those periods it all seemed literally pointless and in no way could I imagine getting enjoyment from ANYTHING period. Its a kind of emptiness you have to experience really as words could never do it justice. My depressive episodes I would describe more as loss of interest that particularly "sad", More like a level of boredom that can't be described.

Now to contrast that at times I really feel like a maniac. The definition of "manic" is exactly how it feels in that state. "Characteristics of mania include rapid speech, racing thoughts, decreased need for sleep, hypersexuality, euphoria, impulsiveness, grandiosity, and an uncontrollably intense interest in goal-directed activities."

For me I think it tends on the hypomania side as I'm in no way psychotic with hallucinations or visions but the main characteristic that I feel when I'm like that is the "uncontrollably intense interest in goal-directed activities." and to a lesser extent the other symptoms, but another one that sticks out is the feeling of "grandiosity". When I'm in a manic mood it feels like literally anything is possible. To be perfectly honest the experience is like a drug. I thoroughly enjoy the times of mania and hyper activity. I honestly feel like I could solve the worlds problems if I had the time and resources to do such.

I will tell you this though, all the times when I feel depressed or bored out of my mind are worth it for the times when I'm manic. I'm an Engineer and although its very hard to juggle the swings in mood and interest I can say in a manic state I LOVE designing things and making mechanical devices. It allows me to visualize things is such a clear state that I can get months of work done in a week. I believe that it also does increase my creativity. I literally can spend hours upon hours and days thinking about a design or an idea working all the small details out in my head and here is the part of the "grandiosity" that you experience in a manic state. It stems from a feeling of being able to creating new things and solving problems. Now when I describe "hours thinking" its different than how most would interpret it. I will describe it as an uncontrollable obsession of intense focus where nothing will stop me from figuring out the problem or idea.

To get on topic I think there is links between the two. Obviously I would not take it as far as being a "genius" but I feel like there is a benefit for me personally as the manic states allow me to function on a high level and therefore I choose to not try to balance that out with medication. The most difficult part is trying to balance the states in a social and professional setting. It does have its negatives because some days working is incredibly difficult for me as I have ZERO interest in what I'm working on and then others I can complete 2 projects, make it better, more efficient and then cook a 4 course at dinner.

I think that the "creativity" part is the results of manic states when the person feels an intense attraction to completing a goal or idea. Its beyond an obsession its more like literally the world is your playground and the possibilities are to incredible to describe. The obsession goes to an life and death state almost when YOU MUST COMPLETE THIS at all costs. Everything is secondary to the idea or goal, eating, sleeping, social interactions etc. it all melts away. For me I choose to live with it because like I stated although its hard sometimes I have more or less taught myself to deal with it and can act appropriately in any situation even though internally I might be depressed or in a manic state.

Anyway that's my manic rant.

I'm not crazy trust me.

 

[metamars]

I used to think my son was schizophrenic

But, in the end, I realized that he was just a Dope 'A Mine.

 

[Baby Nemesis]

... I think that the "creativity" part is the results of manic states when the person feels an intense attraction to completing a goal or idea. Its beyond
an obsession its more like literally the world is your playground and the possibilities are to incredible to describe. The obsession goes to an life and
death state almost when YOU MUST COMPLETE THIS at all costs. Everything is secondary to the idea or goal, eating, sleeping, social interactions etc. it
all melts away. For me I choose to live with it because like I stated although its hard sometimes I have more or less taught myself to deal with it and
can act appropriately in any situation even though internally I might be depressed or in a manic state. ...

I should have replied to this over a month ago when it was put on the board. But I haven't posted here much lately.

It's an interesting post.

I'm just wondering what techniques Clownshoes uses to control his mania and depression when he needs to.

Perhaps if he's still around, he can tell us.

 

[Trakar]

And you have a right to be sceptical because I have offered no evidence. So as to illustrate my PoV, I'll take the example of 'social anxiety disorder', a new mental illness that entered the DSM-IV in 1994. The concept of social phobia had been in the manual prior to this, since 1980 where was described as a fear of performance situations, but the idea of social anxiety being a mental illness in its own right was codified by its inclusion in the 1994 DSM-IV.

Its important to understand the processes here. Its most generally not that a problem never before considered a problem was suddenly redefined as a mental illness, but rather, that a long-existent and recognized psychological issue which had previously been lumped into a larger more general category of problems has been isolated and improved understanding has led to a need for better clarification and distinguishment of the particular characteristics, causations and treatment/therapies of this more specific disorder.

Personality quirks are generally not the subject or provenance of the mental health profession, except when they exhibit in a compulsive or obsessive manner that is problematic to the normal activities of daily living for the individual, and/or those around them.

 

[technoextreme]

But I'm left wondering if this research improves the status of schizophrenics or decreases that of geniuses?

Considering the fact that most stereotypical concept of a genius is that they can't cope with society and live a normal life it isn't exactly surprising.

I think that the "creativity" part is the results of manic states when the person feels an intense attraction to completing a goal or idea. Its beyond an obsession its more like literally the world is your playground and the possibilities are to incredible to describe. The obsession goes to an life and death state almost when YOU MUST COMPLETE THIS at all costs. Everything is secondary to the idea or goal, eating, sleeping, social interactions etc. it all melts away. For me I choose to live with it because like I stated although its hard sometimes I have more or less taught myself to deal with it and can act appropriately in any situation even though internally I might be depressed or in a manic state.

This is exactly the absent minded professor stereotype.