Netanyahu accepts Palestinian State!

[Cleon]

I have to ask -- where does Israel begin and end?

Within six letters.

 

[The Fool]

I have to ask -- where does Israel begin and end?

Thats a question I have asked many people many times. Its something that needs to be declared by Israel so the required steps towards piece can start. Unless Israel would prefer to have the borders imposed by outside force....

This is a matter for negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian national Authority ---- if such a thing can even be said to exist, under the current circumstances of their Diarchy (or Duumvirate.)
There is no need for defining predetermined outcomes.
Or "forcing" or "imposing" any outcome.

I fear the much inferior process of an externally imposed solution may be the only option left after both sides adopt positions that preclude any solution. What is the point of waiting for a negotiated solution that is never going to happen. Palestinians will never accept peace without a state...seeing it as not agreeing to peace but as agreeing to capitulation and Israel ruled by a Likudite Government is never going to agree to a Palestinian state under any circumstances....Chapter 7 resolution here we come?? yuck to that prospect.

 

[webfusion]

Thats a question I have asked many people many times. Its something that needs to be declared by Israel so the required steps towards peace can start. Unless Israel would prefer to have the borders imposed by outside force....

What outside force? The Syrians? The Saudis? The Libyans? The French?

I fear the much inferior process of an externally imposed solution may be the only option left after both sides adopt positions that preclude any solution. What is the point of waiting for a negotiated solution that is never going to happen.

The USA is saying that negotiations are going to be restarted in a few weeks.
Be patient until then, won't you?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1093676.html

Palestinians will never accept peace without a state...

Their "State" will probably end up being a DUUMVIRATE.

...seeing it as not agreeing to peace but as agreeing to capitulation and Israel ruled by a Likudite Government is never going to agree to a Palestinian state under any circumstances....

Israel has expressed willingness to agree to the Palestinian National Authority forming a Confederation with Israel, and declaring a NewPalestine State limited by prudent constraints.

(Not letting them have machine-guns mounted on their APC's, for instance)

Chapter 7 resolution here we come?? yuck to that prospect.

In the USA, Chapter 7 indicates Bankruptcy proceedings.
What did you intend by it?

 

[The Fool]

What outside force? The Syrians? The Saudis? The Libyans? The French?

The UN....probably, as usual, largely manned by the US.

The USA is saying that negotiations are going to be restarted in a few weeks.
Be patient until then, won't you?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1093676.html

restarted....thats correct. Netanyahu is saying it has to start again from scratch. Yep....committed to moving forward as long as every time he is dragged by the ear to the negotiating table he can start again from scratch...maybe starting with negotiating the color of the window shades in the negotiating room? meanwhile back in the world the settlement expansions continue.

Nope...its time to put an end to this charade.

Israel has expressed willingness to agree to the Palestinian National Authority forming a Confederation with Israel, and declaring a NewPalestine State limited by prudent constraints.

prudent constraints? that means no in likud speak doesn't it?

I'm fairly sure your "prudent constraints" are a bit more far reaching than the pedantic little squabbles around the fringes... like below.

(Not letting them have machine-guns mounted on their APC's, for instance)

what incredible machines....used russian apcs with an MG on top.... devastating. Don't give them more than 4....don't want to risk them routing the IDF.

In the USA, Chapter 7 indicates Bankruptcy proceedings.
What did you intend by it?

UN....I think a chapter 7 resolution will be needed to initially protect the new Palestinian nation from Israel.

 

[Skeptic]

Look, folks, it's not that complicated.

The whole "land for peace" idea with Egypt and Jordan was based on the idea that the goal of those countries is to get land lost in war back and that, in return, they are willing to stop belligerency.

With the Palestinians, this formula -- understandably -- was tried again. The result was not peace, but unprecedented terror and war.

Why the difference?

Not because all Arabs / Muslims are fanatical haters (if so, the peace with Egypt and Jordan would never have been signed). Not because of Israel's "expansionist agenda" (if so, the peace with Egypt and Jordan would never have been signed).

But because the Palestinians, unlike the Egyptians and Jordanians, are not fighting Israel to get territory -- they are trying to get territory to fight Israel, per the "staged plan" for its eradication.

Just check out Abbas' and Arafat's speeches (especially those in Arabic), Hamas' leaders speeches, Palestinian education, TV, radio, internet sites, newspapers, the PLO covenant, the 1974 "staged plan", Hamas constitution, and so on and so forth -- above all, check their actions ever since the Oslo "peace" accords.

Every town evacuated by the IDF, every Palestinian soldier trained for "internal security", instantly became enemy territory or force whose main purpose was to kill Jews or serve as a base to launch attacks on Jews. Every gesture of goodwill from the Israeli side -- removal of roadblocks, say -- was instantly used as a new way to send terorrists against it.

What was the only thing that DID happen to reduce Palestinian terorrism? Why, the "apartheid wall", the practical re-occupation of the WB "in violation of the Oslo accords", and the "genocide" (fighting back) against Hamas in Gaza.

Everything -- almost literally everything -- points out to the obvious, to wit, the Palestinians are not only the enemy, but an insatiable enemy, whose goal is Israel's destruction and nothing else; an enemy who uses everything it is given to continue to fight to kill Jews, and only stops when he is forcibly restrained by Israel fighting back.

It couldn't be more obvious if the PA ran a full-page advertisement declareing this on the first page of the New York Times.

 

[The Fool]

Look, folks, it's not that complicated.

The whole "land for peace" idea with Egypt and Jordan was based on the idea that the goal of those countries is to get land lost in war back and that, in return, they are willing to stop belligerency.

With the Palestinians, this formula -- understandably -- was tried again. The result was not peace, but unprecedented terror and war.

Why the difference?

Not because all Arabs / Muslims are fanatical haters (if so, the peace with Egypt and Jordan would never have been signed). Not because of Israel's "expansionist agenda" (if so, the peace with Egypt and Jordan would never have been signed).

But because the Palestinians, unlike the Egyptians and Jordanians, are not fighting Israel to get territory -- they are trying to get territory to fight Israel, per the "staged plan" for its eradication.

Just check out Abbas' and Arafat's speeches (especially those in Arabic), Hamas' leaders speeches, Palestinian education, TV, radio, internet sites, newspapers, the PLO covenant, the 1974 "staged plan", Hamas constitution, and so on and so forth -- above all, check their actions ever since the Oslo "peace" accords.

Every town evacuated by the IDF, every Palestinian soldier trained for "internal security", instantly became enemy territory or force whose main purpose was to kill Jews or serve as a base to launch attacks on Jews. Every gesture of goodwill from the Israeli side -- removal of roadblocks, say -- was instantly used as a new way to send terorrists against it.

What was the only thing that DID happen to reduce Palestinian terorrism? Why, the "apartheid wall", the practical re-occupation of the WB "in violation of the Oslo accords", and the "genocide" (fighting back) against Hamas in Gaza.

Everything -- almost literally everything -- points out to the obvious, to wit, the Palestinians are not only the enemy, but an insatiable enemy, whose goal is Israel's destruction and nothing else; an enemy who uses everything it is given to continue to fight to kill Jews, and only stops when he is forcibly restrained by Israel fighting back.

It couldn't be more obvious if the PA ran a full-page advertisement declareing this on the first page of the New York Times.

as I said...with extremist views such as this actually having some traction within Likud it looks like resolution will need to be imposed.

 

[webfusion]

The UN....probably, as usual, largely manned by the US.

The same UN that has UNIFIL, UNDOF? The same UN that can't tie its own shoelaces?
The same UN whose forces were put into Sinai after 1956 Suez War, only to turn around and walk away when asked to by Nasser in May 1967?

restarted....thats correct. Netanyahu is saying it has to start again from scratch.

Evidence of that?

Yep....committed to moving forward as long as every time he is dragged by the ear to the negotiating table he can start again from scratch...maybe starting with negotiating the color of the window shades in the negotiating room? meanwhile back in the world the settlement expansions continue.

No new settlements have been started for decades. Meanwhile, the Palestinians have valid incentives to come to the table, without THEIR pre-conditions. (i.e. -- 100% withdrawal to the 1949 Lines)

Nope...its time to put an end to this charade.

What's the rush? What makes the time so especially ripe now? Just because the American President says so? All American Presidents have said exactly the same.
And, honestly, with the Diarchy of Gaza/WestBank, it would not seem that the Palestinians can even negotiate with "one voice" and hold to any agreements reached by Abbas. That is a chimera.

prudent constraints? that means no in likud speak doesn't it?

It is English-speak.

"Prudent"
exercising good judgment or common sense.

"Constraints"
= Explicit limitations.

Israelis are not stupid.
They understand exactly who they are dealing with.

CLICK TO VIEW:
http://www.moonbattery.com/hamas-terrorists.jpg

I'm fairly sure your "prudent constraints" are a bit more far reaching than the pedantic little squabbles around the fringes... like restrictions on those incredible BTR-70 machines....used russian apcs with an MG on top.... devastating. Don't give them more than 4....don't want to risk them routing the IDF.

They have requested 150. The first 50 are currently sitting in Jordan, awaiting delivery.
The Israelis have agreed to them being introduced, along with several Palestinian "Security Force" battalions that US Lt.-Gen. Keith Dayton is overseeing in Jordan.

By the way, TheFool, how many of these are in use by your local Police Dep't.? 12? 30? None?

I think you are being disingenuous by suggesting that the IDF would have no fears in any future combat from heavy machine-guns mounted on 11.5 ton armored vehicles.

UN....I think a chapter 7 resolution will be needed to initially protect the new Palestinian nation from Israel.

The Palestinians have nothing to fear from Israel.

 

[DC]

Look, folks, it's not that complicated.

The whole "land for peace" idea with Egypt and Jordan was based on the idea that the goal of those countries is to get land lost in war back and that, in return, they are willing to stop belligerency.

With the Palestinians, this formula -- understandably -- was tried again. The result was not peace, but unprecedented terror and war.

Why the difference?

Not because all Arabs / Muslims are fanatical haters (if so, the peace with Egypt and Jordan would never have been signed). Not because of Israel's "expansionist agenda" (if so, the peace with Egypt and Jordan would never have been signed).

But because the Palestinians, unlike the Egyptians and Jordanians, are not fighting Israel to get territory -- they are trying to get territory to fight Israel, per the "staged plan" for its eradication.

Just check out Abbas' and Arafat's speeches (especially those in Arabic), Hamas' leaders speeches, Palestinian education, TV, radio, internet sites, newspapers, the PLO covenant, the 1974 "staged plan", Hamas constitution, and so on and so forth -- above all, check their actions ever since the Oslo "peace" accords.

Every town evacuated by the IDF, every Palestinian soldier trained for "internal security", instantly became enemy territory or force whose main purpose was to kill Jews or serve as a base to launch attacks on Jews. Every gesture of goodwill from the Israeli side -- removal of roadblocks, say -- was instantly used as a new way to send terorrists against it.

What was the only thing that DID happen to reduce Palestinian terorrism? Why, the "apartheid wall", the practical re-occupation of the WB "in violation of the Oslo accords", and the "genocide" (fighting back) against Hamas in Gaza.

Everything -- almost literally everything -- points out to the obvious, to wit, the Palestinians are not only the enemy, but an insatiable enemy, whose goal is Israel's destruction and nothing else; an enemy who uses everything it is given to continue to fight to kill Jews, and only stops when he is forcibly restrained by Israel fighting back.

It couldn't be more obvious if the PA ran a full-page advertisement declareing this on the first page of the New York Times.

nothing is complicated in a Black and White world.

 

[webfusion]

D-C, the entire post of Skeptic went on (and you quoted it) to show some of the nuances, the peaks and valleys and twists and turns, and yet it really all comes out to one thing -- Israel has 'probable cause' to go cautiously.

As I pointed out in my previous post, we Israelis are not idiots.
We know exactly who we're dealing with.

 

[DC]

D-C, the entire post of Skeptic went on (and you quoted it) to show some of the nuances, the peaks and valleys and twists and turns, and yet it really all comes out to one thing -- Israel has 'probable cause' to go cautiously.

As I pointed out in my previous post, we Israelis are not idiots.
We know exactly who we're dealing with.

If you think so

 

[webfusion]

I know so.
Evidence backs me up.

 

[The Fool]

The same UN that has UNIFIL, UNDOF? The same UN that can't tie its own shoelaces?
The same UN whose forces were put into Sinai after 1956 Suez War, only to turn around and walk away when asked to by Nasser in May 1967?

Thats right....the UN.

Evidence of that?

Netanyahu wants the negotiations to start all over again. Are you disputing this? Because I don't want to waste my time being sent on "evidence please" chases unless you have missed seeing what is in the article you linked to yourself in this thread...

No new settlements have been started for decades. Meanwhile, the Palestinians have valid incentives to come to the table, without THEIR pre-conditions. (i.e. -- 100% withdrawal to the 1949 Lines)

No new settlements for decades are you serious? Please just google "new settlement" and Israel.
Its amazing sometimes the things you say...

What's the rush? What makes the time so especially ripe now? Just because the American President says so?

your excuses are running out of steam....If the right wing of Israeli politics wants to be relevant and involved its time to end the games..

I think you are being disingenuous by suggesting that the IDF would have no fears in any future combat from heavy machine-guns mounted on 11.5 ton armored vehicles.

Apparently these clapped out surplus russian light armoured viehicle with an MG on top have got Israel crapping itself....

The Palestinians have nothing to fear from Israel.

I'm sure they don't....however when they listen to rants like those you will read from "skeptic" and read the Likud Charter they may just want some protection anyway....

In order to further ease any Palestinian fears can you please get likud to drop the bit in thier charter about what they will do immediately if palestinians ever proclaim a state?

 

[geni]

They have requested 150. The first 50 are currently sitting in Jordan, awaiting delivery.
The Israelis have agreed to them being introduced, along with several Palestinian "Security Force" battalions that US Lt.-Gen. Keith Dayton is overseeing in Jordan.

By the way, TheFool, how many of these are in use by your local Police Dep't.? 12? 30? None?

They don't quite have the same internal issues in Australia. In northern Ireland the police deployed the machine gun armed Shorland armoured car, the 7.5 ton Humber Pig and on one occasion Centurion AVREs.

I don't know how much the Land Rover Tangi ended up weighing after they finished attaching extra armour to it but it can now be found in a number of police forces in the UK.

I think you are being disingenuous by suggesting that the IDF would have no fears in any future combat from heavy machine-guns mounted on 11.5 ton armored vehicles.

Isreal has tanks. The history of machine gun armed vehicles against tanks isn't too good.

 

[Skeptic]

I know so.
Evidence backs me up.

Evidence-schmevidence.

It's not allowed to disagree with the "Palestinians are innocent victims" fantasy about the middle east.

You... Islamophobe! And racist! And... and... extremist!

Add your own. The above three are the most common usual slurs when someone posts the obvious, but inconvenient, truth about the middle east.

Then, having declared the truth-teller to be a BAD PERSON, the fantasist promptly declares they will not discuss the middle east any more with such a BAD PERSON, and goes off in search of another fantasist to discuss their mutual mideast fantasy with. As such fantasists are very common, epecially on college campuses and in the mainstream media, finding a co-fantasist is easy.

It's possible to live one's whole life inside this fantasy. Other fantasies held that position in the past: Catholic religious dogma, for instance, or Marxism. Some have not yet woken from those fantasies, either, mountains of evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. So it is not at all surprising some have not woken up from the mideast "Palestinians are victims" fantasy, either.

As long as one only speaks to fellow believers and shuts out any annoying reality by declaring the bearer of such information a "racist", "Islamophobe", etc., one's OK.

 

[Skeptic]

They don't quite have the same internal issues in Australia.

Yes, Australian police doesn't have to kill Jews, as per the Palestinian charter and Arafat's speeches. Also, Australia has free elections, which means the police is not required to pay a not-so-friendly visit to anybody who might disagree with the current junta.

Such jobs -- experience shows that these are more or less the only jobs the Palestinian police does remotely well -- definitely make the police need more firepower than in Australia.

 

[The Fool]

Yes, Australian police doesn't have to kill Jews, as per the Palestinian charter and Arafat's speeches. Also, Australia has free elections, which means the police is not required to pay a not-so-friendly visit to anybody who might disagree with the current junta.

Such jobs -- experience shows that these are more or less the only jobs the Palestinian police does remotely well -- definitely make the police need more firepower than in Australia.

probably doesn't matter how much steam you blow "skeptic" looks like events are going to progress despite the squeals of the far right in Israel... Maybe you should participate rather than chant slogans and remain irrelevant?

 

[geni]

Yes, Australian police doesn't have to kill Jews, as per the Palestinian charter and Arafat's speeches. Also, Australia has free elections, which means the police is not required to pay a not-so-friendly visit to anybody who might disagree with the current junta.

Strangely northern irland had all that. Didn't stop the police from needed the kit I listed.

 

[webfusion]

Israel has tanks. The history of machine gun armed vehicles against tanks isn't too good.

So, Israel's military would have to deploy tanks, to chase around those APC's, and in the process, be exposed to roadside IED ambushes and anti-tank fire. Sounds like a great opportunity for the IDF. Thanks. No thanks. Been there, done that.

and TheFool offers:

Netanyahu wants the negotiations to start all over again. Are you disputing this? Because I don't want to waste my time being sent on "evidence please" chases unless you have missed seeing what is in the article you linked to yourself in this thread...

I linked to several articles during my participation this thread. Having gone back to them, I couldn't find anything which supports your claim that "Netanyahu wants to start from scratch"

Your turn... supply the evidence.

More from TheFool: Apparently these clapped out surplus russian light armoured vehicles with an MG on top have got Israel crapping itself....

There will not be guns mounted. If the Palestinians insist on it, they won't get these APC's at all. Israel is not crapping itself, Israel is placing "prudent constraints" upon the Palestinians.
That is the overall policy of this new government.

and one more --

No new settlements for decades are you serious? Please just google "new settlement" and Israel.

Absolutely serious.
Netanyahu has said, publicly and clearly:
"We are obliged to uphold the law." --- "We won't establish new settlements."

The last officially-sanctioned Israeli settlement was 26 years ago.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1086339.html
Tenders have been issued for 20 housing units in the new Maskiot settlement, a new (proposed) settlement in the northern West Bank -- this is the first government-authorized tender in 26 years.


For the record:
The Maskiot initiative began three years ago, under the auspices of then-defense minister Amir Peretz, who promised to transform the former army outpost into a permanent settlement for evacuees from the Gaza Strip. The move was then frozen due to American insistence.

As of today, no construction work is progressing at the site. AFAIK.

 

[geni]

So, Israel's military would have to deploy tanks, to chase around those APC's, and in the process, be exposed to roadside IED ambushes and anti-tank fire. Sounds like a great opportunity for the IDF. Thanks. No thanks. Been there, done that.

Not chase. If those things are moveing the give off a massive IR signiture and can be removed from the air with little effort.

 

[webfusion]

Not chase. If those things are moveing the give off a massive IR signiture and can be removed from the air with little effort.

Israel is willing to allow the Palestinian Police to field these APC's in support of their battalions of "Police" troops.
I see no reason that the "Police" need heavy machine guns mounted.
The Palestinians want the APC's? Then drop the demand for machine guns.
It's very simple.
As I pointed out in my previous post, we Israelis are not idiots.
We know exactly who we're dealing with.