Neil Gaiman "cancelled"?

(...) I think the general attitude in this forum is that (...) in threads involving rape allegations (...) the accused is automatically guilty.
Are you interested in backing this assertion up? From where I'm standing there is about as much evidence that 'people on this forum have decided Gaiman is definitely guilty' as there is evidence that Gaiman is definitely guilty.

Most if not all of us are waaay back on maybe second base with a general sentiment of 'yikes that looks bad' or '◊◊◊◊◊◊ up if true'

If THAT is what you call an unfair judgement then I'm right back where I joined this thread saying that assumption of guilt is exactly what you are doing at the alleged victim in asserting that she is a lying golddigger when the facts only show that her texts to him at the time were generally positive about the encounter.

If the entirety of your response to this post is to go 'that's what a lie IS' then you are retreating to your motte IMO.
 
Damn, y'all need to chillax. Some points:

1. Claims require evidence.
2. Nobody posting in this thread, and nobody reading this thread has access to actual evidence. You aren't on a jury, you aren't on the legal teams, you are only getting news stories and gossip and filling in the rest with your own assumptions and ideas.
3. Nobody has tasked anybody here with determining the truth of this matter, so your guesses here have zero stakes to them.
4. This is just an internet messageboard, and it's entertainment. Don't be clawing each other over something that happened or might not happened to people you don't know and will never meet and have no way of determining the actual truth of the matter about. It may never be known, at least not to people who aren't involved and don't have access to evidence, which may not even exist.

Sometimes y'all act like you've been charged by God to come up with the answer to stuff you can't actually really know about, and you win a prize if you get it right. To me a big part of skepticism is knowing when you are not in a position to figure something out, no matter how brilliantly skeptical you are.
 
Not uncritically believing all women means I'm giving all rapists as pass? C'mon PT, you aren't stupid. Tell me you know that you are deliberately misrepresenting what I have said.
You should seriously consider the possibility that some of us are critically believing these women. For example, I think the DMs are a problem for the plaintiff, but I also think they're consistent with the kind of behavior that many sexual assault victims display, especially when there's a real or perceived power imbalance in favor of the assaulter. Because of that consistency, and taken in total with the other accusations, the reported pattern of behavior by both Palmer and Gaiman over many years, and the facts that Gaiman has stipulated to, I'm inclined to think this accuser is probably telling the truth.
 
When someone claims they have been sexually assaulted, raped or otherwise attacked, we should treat those claims with exactly the same level of skepticism that we would if they were claiming to have seen a UFO, or a ghost or had a near death experience.
Absolutely not. UFOs and ghosts are paranormal. The odds of such claims being true are .00001% give or take. Whereas rape/assault is quite obviously real and frequent.
 
Damn, y'all need to chillax. Some points:

1. Claims require evidence.
2. Nobody posting in this thread, and nobody reading this thread has access to actual evidence. You aren't on a jury, you aren't on the legal teams, you are only getting news stories and gossip and filling in the rest with your own assumptions and ideas.
3. Nobody has tasked anybody here with determining the truth of this matter, so your guesses here have zero stakes to them.
4. This is just an internet messageboard, and it's entertainment. Don't be clawing each other over something that happened or might not happened to people you don't know and will never meet and have no way of determining the actual truth of the matter about. It may never be known, at least not to people who aren't involved and don't have access to evidence, which may not even exist.

Sometimes y'all act like you've been charged by God to come up with the answer to stuff you can't actually really know about, and you win a prize if you get it right. To me a big part of skepticism is knowing when you are not in a position to figure something out, no matter how brilliantly skeptical you are.
Of course. I agree. I am not upset by the conclusion that someone here has arrived at but by the horrifically bad reasoning used to arrive at it, and the refusal to acknowledge basic facts and the repetition of falsehoods. Also when someone boasts about their own stellar reputation on the forum when that is awarded to themselves by themselves while simultaneously deriding pretty much everyone else on the forum for having bad critical thinking, that’s a level of chutzpah that’s pretty obnoxious.

Fortunately I have not said who I am talking about so you’ll just have to guess. It can’t be me because I am so smart and everyone else agrees… the morons!
 
Absolutely not. UFOs and ghosts are paranormal. The odds of such claims being true are .00001% give or take. Whereas rape/assault is quite obviously real and frequent.
It’s quite a telling comparison.

If you treat “I just saw a ghost!” with the same level of credibility as “I was just raped!” you are either laughably credulous or horrifically callous.
 
It’s quite a telling comparison.

If you treat “I just saw a ghost!” with the same level of credibility as “I was just raped!” you are either laughably credulous or horrifically callous.
Rape is a horrific accusation. Just putting it out there can harm the accused, even if they're innocent. Accepting such a claim without demanding good evidence is also horrifically callous.

It's a conundrum for which I don't have a good answer. But I do at least know that "assume the accuser is telling the truth a priori" is not the good answer we're looking for.
 
Rape is a horrific accusation. Just putting it out there can harm the accused, even if they're innocent. Accepting such a claim without demanding good evidence is also horrifically callous.

It's a conundrum for which I don't have a good answer. But I do at least know that "assume the accuser is telling the truth a priori" is not the good answer we're looking for.
That’s not at all what is meant by considering both statements to be equally likely.

To make it obvious, if someone says they saw a ghost, I would assume they were completely mistaken if not lying. I might even sarcastically retort “sure you did!” If I felt particularly generous that day or I was talking to a child I might ask them to tell me how they came to that conclusion while trying to get them to see what really happened.

Now, should my reaction be the same as that if someone said they were raped? No, of course not! This does NOT mean I would automatically treat the accusation as gold-plated truth. Of course not; the statement simply needs to be taken with a different level of seriousness.
 
Yeah, the whole 'believe them' thing is supposed to mean 'start by holding their hand and giving them support as if the report were true' as nobody has anything to lose by treating a liar with stolen compassion. It's really just the other side of the 'better x guilty men go free than one innocent man suffer' thing. It is NOT supposed to mean 'start by meteing out justice to the accused as if the report were true'
Hope this helps
 
That’s not at all what is meant by considering both statements to be equally likely.
Now I'm confused. I'm not talking about treating both statements as equally likely. Or even equally credible.
To make it obvious, if someone says they saw a ghost, I would assume they were completely mistaken if not lying. I might even sarcastically retort “sure you did!” If I felt particularly generous that day or I was talking to a child I might ask them to tell me how they came to that conclusion while trying to get them to see what really happened.

Now, should my reaction be the same as that if someone said they were raped? No, of course not! This does NOT mean I would automatically treat the accusation as gold-plated truth. Of course not; the statement simply needs to be taken with a different level of seriousness.
Yes. The statement that someone was raped should be treated like a serious accusation, and the accuser should be seriously required to provide whatever evidence they can to support such a horrific charge, if they wish for their cause to be taken up, and for the accused to be persecuted on the strength of the accusation.

Whereas the claim of seeing a ghost or a UFO can usually be dismissed in a casual way, if you're not particularly concerned about getting to the bottom of it.

To make it obvious, if Alice comes to me and says, "what's more likely, that I saw a ghost or that Bob raped me", I wouldn't take the bait. She wants to establish the likelihood that Bob raped her, she needs to actually do it, not slide into it via disingenuous implication.
 
Yeah, the whole 'believe them' thing is supposed to mean 'start by holding their hand and giving them support as if the report were true' as nobody has anything to lose by treating a liar with stolen compassion. It's really just the other side of the 'better x guilty men go free than one innocent man suffer' thing. It is NOT supposed to mean 'start by meteing out justice to the accused as if the report were true'
Hope this helps
I’m not even saying “believe”. I’m just pointing out that the statements about seeing ghosts and being raped don’t have the same prima facie likelihood at all.
 
Now I'm confused. I'm not talking about treating both statements as equally likely. Or even equally credible.

Yes. The statement that someone was raped should be treated like a serious accusation, and the accuser should be seriously required to provide whatever evidence they can to support such a horrific charge, if they wish for their cause to be taken up, and for the accused to be persecuted on the strength of the accusation.

Whereas the claim of seeing a ghost or a UFO can usually be dismissed in a casual way, if you're not particularly concerned about getting to the bottom of it.

To make it obvious, if Alice comes to me and says, "what's more likely, that I saw a ghost or that Bob raped me", I wouldn't take the bait. She wants to establish the likelihood that Bob raped her, she needs to actually do it, not slide into it via disingenuous implication.
Dafuq?

Do you agree with this claim:

When someone claims they have been sexually assaulted, raped or otherwise attacked, we should treat those claims with exactly the same level of skepticism that we would if they were claiming to have seen a UFO, or a ghost or had a near death experience.
 
I’m not even saying “believe”. I’m just pointing out that the statements about seeing ghosts and being raped don’t have the same prima facie likelihood at all.
Oh, yeah, I was just going off on my tangent there.
 
I’m not even saying “believe”. I’m just pointing out that the statements about seeing ghosts and being raped don’t have the same prima facie likelihood at all.
And I'm saying prima facie likelihood is a bad way to approach a rape accusation. It is, in fact, callous towards the accused.
Dafuq?

Do you agree with this claim:
I do not agree with that claim. I don't agree with the relative likelihood/relative plausibility framing at all.

To be clear: If Alice says she was raped, without naming names or establishing a time frame, that's plausible enough. More plausible than ghosts.

On the other hand, if Alice says Bob from accounting raped her last night as they were closing up the office, I would absolutely not consider it a priori more likely or more plausible than if Alice said she saw a ghost. That would be horrifically unfair to Bob.

For me, it's not a question of plausibility, but a question of actionability. Typical claims of ghosts or aliens are entirely un-actionable. There's nothing you can really do with them. Most of the time, you can't even investigate.

Accusing Bob of rape is very actionable. To the extent that imperfectly informed action could do Bob great harm, I'd say that an actionable claim of rape should be treated with *more* skepticism than an un-actionable claim of ghosts.

All of which to say, I think it's likely that Gaiman has raped more than once, and that Palmer has knowingly procured victims for him. Not because I think these things are more likely in the abstract than alien ghosts or ghost aliens. Rather, because of the totality of the information avaliable so far.

I'm surprised this is such a sticking point for you. I'm sure you're just as horrified as I am, at the idea that we should assume an unsupported rape claim is true, because rapes are more likely than ghosts.
 
And I'm saying prima facie likelihood is a bad way to approach a rape accusation. It is, in fact, callous towards the accused.

I do not agree with that claim. I don't agree with the relative likelihood/relative plausibility framing at all.

To be clear: If Alice says she was raped, without naming names or establishing a time frame, that's plausible enough. More plausible than ghosts.

On the other hand, if Alice says Bob from accounting raped her last night as they were closing up the office, I would absolutely not consider it a priori more likely or more plausible than if Alice said she saw a ghost. That would be horrifically unfair to Bob.

For me, it's not a question of plausibility, but a question of actionability. Typical claims of ghosts or aliens are entirely un-actionable. There's nothing you can really do with them. Most of the time, you can't even investigate.

Accusing Bob of rape is very actionable. To the extent that imperfectly informed action could do Bob great harm, I'd say that an actionable claim of rape should be treated with *more* skepticism than an un-actionable claim of ghosts.

All of which to say, I think it's likely that Gaiman has raped more than once, and that Palmer has knowingly procured victims for him. Not because I think these things are more likely in the abstract than alien ghosts or ghost aliens. Rather, because of the totality of the information avaliable so far.

I'm surprised this is such a sticking point for you. I'm sure you're just as horrified as I am, at the idea that we should assume an unsupported rape claim is true, because rapes are more likely than ghosts.
I’m talking about the skepticism involved.

Alice: “I saw a ghost last night!”
Alice: “Bob raped me last night!”

Me: “Yeah, right! 🤪!”
Me: “oh my god!? Are you serious?”

Please match the responses to the claims.
 
Yeah, the whole 'believe them' thing is supposed to mean 'start by holding their hand and giving them support as if the report were true' as nobody has anything to lose by treating a liar with stolen compassion. It's really just the other side of the 'better x guilty men go free than one innocent man suffer' thing. It is NOT supposed to mean 'start by meteing out justice to the accused as if the report were true'Hope this helps
But that is exactly what happens. Its called Trial by Media. On no more than the unsubstantiated word of the accuser, the accused gets vilified and publicly branded a rapist before any evidence is even looked at while the accuser gets to remain anonymous. The accused ends up with the burden to prove they didn't do what they are accused of if want to avoid their life being destroyed. That is a reversal of natural justice.

And the saps in here lap it all up!!
 
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But that is exactly what happens. Its called Trial by Media. On no more than the unsubstantiated word of the accuser, the accused gets vilified and publicly branded a rapist before any evidence is even looked at while the accuser gets to remain anonymous. The accused ends up with the burden to prove they didn't do what they are accused of if want to avoid their life being destroyed. That is a reversal of natural justice.

And the saps in here lap it all up!!
The accusers are not anonymous. Do you even know anything about the accusations other than the WhatsApp messages?
 

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