Neil Gaiman "cancelled"?

arthwollipot said:
It doesn't matter. When you cast doubt on someone's testimony, you are undermining their agency.
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Do you believe all testimony should be accepted unquestioningly, with no room for investigation or cross-examination?

arthwollipot said:
The problem is with starting from the position that it is always a false accusation, when actually these are vastly in the minority. Rape occurs far more often than false accusations.
Someone claims that they have been raped and your first response is "Oh yeah? Prove it."
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No, I started from a position of, it could be a false accusation. When I found out the alleged victim's own messages to the alleged perpetrator directly contradicted her claims, that made me doubt her claims. This is an example of critical thinking.

When someone claims they have been sexually assaulted, raped or otherwise attacked, we should treat those claims with exactly the same level of skepticism that we would if they were claiming to have seen a UFO, or a ghost or had a near death experience.

The problem I see on this forum seems to be that as soon as someone cries rape, everyone suddenly loses their critical thinking skills.
 
smartcooky said:
Do you believe all testimony should be accepted unquestioningly, with no room for investigation or cross-examination?


No, I started from a position of, it could be a false accusation. When I found out the alleged victim's own messages to the alleged perpetrator directly contradicted her claims, that made me doubt her claims. This is an example of critical thinking.

When someone claims they have been sexually assaulted, raped or otherwise attacked, we should treat those claims with exactly the same level of skepticism that we would if they were claiming to have seen a UFO, or a ghost or had a near death experience.

The problem I see on this forum seems to be that as soon as someone cries rape, everyone suddenly loses their critical thinking skills.
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This is just wrong. We should not treat claims of abuse with the same level of skepticism as a claim of a UFO sighting. My god!
 
smartcooky said:
Her messages DO NOT COMPORT with what she is claiming. Y'all are hand-waving this away as if words mean nothing.
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You're the one handwaving away the messages that say Pavlovich told other people about it, and YOU even told us she told the police.

smartcooky said:
The problem I see on this forum seems to be that as soon as someone cries rape, everyone suddenly loses their critical thinking skills.
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This "problem" is one invented in your own mind. I, for one, have already told you I didn't side with Amber Heard.
 
So continuing to listen to the podcast. What is important about Pavlovich’s testimony, whether you believe it or not, is that through that the podcasters tracked down a second accuser. And it was after the podcast was released that further accusers came forward willing to testify on behalf of the other victims.

In other words, smartcooky is again wrong in his claim that nobody else is backing up Pavlovic.
 
Orphia Nay said:
You're the one handwaving away the messages that say Pavlovich told other people about it, and YOU even told us she told the police.


This "problem" is one invented in your own mind. I, for one, have already told you I didn't side with Amber Heard.
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Smartcooky is living in a fantasy world of his own making.
 
smartcooky said:
When someone claims they have been sexually assaulted, raped or otherwise attacked, we should treat those claims with exactly the same level of skepticism that we would if they were claiming to have seen a UFO, or a ghost or had a near death experience.
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No. We shouldn't. Because those things aren't ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ rape!
 
Orphia Nay said:
You're the one handwaving away the messages that say Pavlovich told other people about it, and YOU even told us she told the police.
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What messages? She is making that claim, but do you have the actual messages she sent to these other people?

Orphia Nay said:
This "problem" is one invented in your own mind. I, for one, have already told you I didn't side with Amber Heard.
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Be honest, before you saw any of the evidence, who did you side with?
 
smartcooky said:
What messages? She is making that claim, but do you have the actual messages she sent to these other people?
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The messages angrysoba posted, and that I quoted, that you keep skimming over, show Gaiman himself knew she told other people.

smartcooky said:
Be honest, before you saw any of the evidence, who did you side with?
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Look at the thread title. I made the OP, and was quite concerned that a man with such a good reputation as Gaiman may be getting "cancelled" as I put it.
 
Orphia Nay said:
The messages angrysoba posted, and that I quoted, that you keep skimming over, show Gaiman himself knew she told other people.


Look at the thread title. I made the OP, and was quite concerned that a man with such a good reputation as Gaiman may be getting "cancelled" as I put it.
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Ironically I took those messages from the PDF of What’sApp messages that smartcooky himself posted. The messages he claims others have not read yet he appears not to have read himself.
 
Consider prior plausibility. Because we are skeptics, we know that UFOs aren't alien spacecraft. We know that remote viewing doesn't work. We know that bigfoot was a guy in a suit. We also know that rape is vastly underreported. In the first three claims we can safely assume that they are wrong, and ask for extraordinary evidence to prove they are not. Should we be asking for the same level of extraordinary evidence that a woman has been raped? I say no.

Sure, there is a certain amount of skepticism to be had - "always believe the claimant no matter what" is wrong and basically begging the question. But we should listen to accusations, examine evidence, and above all else do it with kindness and compassion for the harm that has been done. Casting doubt on every claim is neither compassionate nor kind.

False claims happen, but they are rare. Especially when compared to actual rape cases. Assume that those hoofbeats are horses.
 
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Other women who came forward later had to sign NDAs.

So that rather punctures smartcooky’a fatuous claims that they should have told friends and family when they were prohibited from doing so.
 
arthwollipot said:
Consider prior plausibility. Because we are skeptics, we know that UFOs aren't alien spacecraft.
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Who said anything about aliens?

arthwollipot said:
We know that remote viewing doesn't work. We know that bigfoot was a guy in a suit. We also know that rape is vastly underreported. In the first three claims we can safely assume that they are wrong, and ask for extraordinary evidence to prove they are not. Should we be asking for the same level of extraordinary evidence that a woman has been raped? I say no.
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Its a claim. I require evidence to support that claim before I accept it.

The alleged victim's claims words have little evidential value if they can't be backed up. That evidentiary value drops to zero when the victim's own documentary evidence (which is always more powerful than personal, unsupported claims) directly contradicts the claims. I am staggered that on a skeptic's forum, documentary evidence is being ignored as it if doesn't even exist. Mark my words, if this ever gets to see the inside of a courtroom, those messages will be the elephant in that room. They will have to be explained, and I'll be very surprised if a jury is able to see past them.

arthwollipot said:
Sure, there is a certain amount of skepticism to be had - "always believe the claimant no matter what" is wrong and basically begging the question. But we should listen to accusations, examine evidence, and above all else do it with kindness and compassion for the harm that has been done. Casting doubt on every claim is neither compassionate nor kind.
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I'm not interested in being compassionate in this case. I donlt know any of these people, and I donlt care about them

I'm only interested in the evidence
arthwollipot said:
False claims happen, but they are rare. Especially when compared to actual rape cases. Assume that those hoofbeats are horses.
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As I explained, that might be rare in percentages, but don't let the percentages fool you - you have to look at the actual numbers.

There are about 140,000 rapes reported in the US... between 2% and 10% are false accusations.... thats between 2,800 and 14,000 false accusations.
 
smartcooky said:
Correct.

False accusations of rape and sexual assault always have consequences beyond the mere fact of the false accusation, and many of those consequences are severe, life-long and in many cases, beyond remedy.
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Thankfully rape and sexual assault don't always have long term consequences.
 
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