Neil Gaiman "cancelled"?

[zooterkin]

I've listened to the last two episodes of the "Master" podcast 6-part series.

I won't type up summaries since my first 4 got no response.

I really appreciated them (though the information in them made me rather sad), but I'm away on a short break so didn't have time to respond.

I didn't know about his background in Scientology; I have enjoyed Gaiman's writings (as opposed to comic books, which I've never got into, though I do like comics in general), and some of his work has resonated with me.

A couple of things I will note:

1. Neil Gaiman's lawyer is Andrew Brettler, lawyer for Russell Brand, Danny Masterson, and Prince Andrew.

Oh, dear.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Hard to remain a $cientologist when you make up worlds more believable than Ron's

 

[Orphia Nay]

Thanks, zooterkin.

The podcast creators give a good summary of Episode 5 - The NDAs here:

https://www.tortoisemedia.com/2024/...cuse-neil-gaiman-of-sexual-assault-and-abuse/


Episode 6 - The Phone Calls is mostly about "Claire" who was allegedly groped and kissed and touched unwantedly and sent sexually explicit messages by Gaiman starting in 2012 when she was 22 and he was 52.

He allegedly pursued her for sex and they were in contact for 9 months before she cut off contact after he allegedly lay on her and tried to kiss her in the back of a tour bus. She said no. He said "I'm a very wealthy man and I'm used to getting what I want". She didn't respond and then she said he said (yep) "I'm going to have to let you go."

His story is that he thought she wanted intimate contact. She was star-struck, another fan like K, but not sexually attracted in any way.

She thought she was the only one, like all the others.

In 2022 during Me Too etc she learned the language of consent and coercion and felt "grounded" after spending years trying to work it out, not wanting to believe her hero was bad in any way or that she was to blame for his actions.

She writes a long letter to NG (after contacting numerous news outlets and seeing if others had talked, with no action taken) in 2022, dejected, pregnant at the time, exhausted, 9-10 years after their relationship.

She records the phone call when he calls her.

She's anxious about the cost of her therapy and he apologises and says "I'm sorry, even my memories have been obviously wrong" He offers to pay her $500/month for 10 years (60K) for it, and to make a hefty donation to the rape crisis centre she now works at (the latter of which he didn't do). This is 2 months after he sent Scarlett 8K for her therapy.

Similarities: the women's ages (20-22), their vulnerable situations, 2 were fans, 2 were employees, 3 had to call him "Master", 2 (or 3?) were allegedly beaten with a belt, choked, and spanked.

The podcasts did a good job of remaining neutral, but bringing up contradictions by Gaiman and examples of consent at times by the women.


OK, it's been tiring listening to all this and trying to do a good job of summarising it.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Thanks again.

 

[mumblethrax]

double post

 

[mumblethrax]

The "deal" was that she'd sign an NDA. Doesn't that qualify as coercive control?

Since you're replying to me but responding to Hans, I'll just say I agree with you. There's plenty to indicate coercion (if the allegations are true).

And I also appreciated the write-ups.

 

[mumblethrax]

If you think that the former is the actual claim or that the later's just sophistry, you just made my case that you don't understand intensional contexts at all

For the sake of clarity, I think this whole silly digression is sophistical, because it designed to look clever but accomplishes nothing.

It's also fairly off-topic at this point, but if you'd like to start a new thread about your ideas about burden of proof in intensional contexts, I'd be happy to ignore it.

 

[HansMustermann]

Thank you.

Sort of, I mean he did mention it.

IF it's supposed to be a defense, it reminds me of a term that IIRC Cracked coined a long time ago: Assburger Syndrome. You know, when people think autism is a valid excuse to be an ass. Bonus points if it's self-diagnosed. (Not in his case, but there are plenty who use the excuse without having been diagnosed by an actual doctor.)

Kinda like we've had people all along who blamed it on their star sign.

 

[Brainster]

Very long article in New York Magazine's Vulture section. A taste (spoiled for NSFW):

Gaiman asked her to sit on his lap. Pavlovich stammered out a few sentences: She was gay, she’d never had sex, she had been sexually abused by a 45-year-old man when she was 15. Gaiman continued to press. “The next part is really amorphous,” Pavlovich tells me. “But I can tell you that he put his fingers straight into my ass and tried to put his penis in my ass. And I said, ‘No, no.’ Then he tried to rub his penis between my breasts, and I said ‘no’ as well. Then he asked if he could come on my face, and I said ‘no’ but he did anyway. He said, ‘Call me ‘master,’ and I’ll come.’ He said, ‘Be a good girl. You’re a good little girl.’”

 

[theprestige]

Very long article in New York Magazine's Vulture section. A taste (spoiled for NSFW):

Gaiman asked her to sit on his lap. Pavlovich stammered out a few sentences: She was gay, she’d never had sex, she had been sexually abused by a 45-year-old man when she was 15. Gaiman continued to press. “The next part is really amorphous,” Pavlovich tells me. “But I can tell you that he put his fingers straight into my ass and tried to put his penis in my ass. And I said, ‘No, no.’ Then he tried to rub his penis between my breasts, and I said ‘no’ as well. Then he asked if he could come on my face, and I said ‘no’ but he did anyway. He said, ‘Call me ‘master,’ and I’ll come.’ He said, ‘Be a good girl. You’re a good little girl.’”

Sounds like prostitution to me. Throw the book at her. /s

 

[angrysoba]

Very long article in New York Magazine's Vulture section. A taste (spoiled for NSFW):

Gaiman asked her to sit on his lap. Pavlovich stammered out a few sentences: She was gay, she’d never had sex, she had been sexually abused by a 45-year-old man when she was 15. Gaiman continued to press. “The next part is really amorphous,” Pavlovich tells me. “But I can tell you that he put his fingers straight into my ass and tried to put his penis in my ass. And I said, ‘No, no.’ Then he tried to rub his penis between my breasts, and I said ‘no’ as well. Then he asked if he could come on my face, and I said ‘no’ but he did anyway. He said, ‘Call me ‘master,’ and I’ll come.’ He said, ‘Be a good girl. You’re a good little girl.’”

Jesus! Never read him, but I had assumed he had a reputation for being a feminist, but turns out he was Andrew Tate the whole time. If, I should add, these accounts are true.

 

[arthwollipot]

Jesus! Never read him, but I had assumed he had a reputation for being a feminist, but turns out he was Andrew Tate the whole time. If, I should add, these accounts are true.

There's no reason to doubt them. Multiple credible accusations including his ex-wife.

 

[angrysoba]

There's no reason to doubt them. Multiple credible accusations including his ex-wife.

Basically no reason to doubt, but I also think that we should hear from the accused, and although I haven't read the whole thing it looks like some of these allegations amount to serious crimes. Surely he should be charged.

 

[Matthew Best]

Basically no reason to doubt, but I also think that we should hear from the accused, and although I haven't read the whole thing it looks like some of these allegations amount to serious crimes. Surely he should be charged.

It's certainly possible to hear from the accused, as he has responded to the latest accusations here:

Breaking the Silence

Over the past many months, I have watched the stories circulating the internet about me with horror and dismay. I’ve stayed quiet until now,...

journal.neilgaiman.com

Basically, he says he didn't do it, and if he did do it, it wasn't bad, but he will do better from now on, and is learning how to grow as a person, but he definitely didn't have sex with anyone without their consent and although he takes responsibility for any bad behaviour, it wasn't as bad as people are saying. Promise.

Amazingly I seem to have managed to navigate several sexual relationships without ever having had to resort to getting my partners to sign Non-Disclosure Agreements, but that's just me I guess.

 

[angrysoba]

It's certainly possible to hear from the accused, as he has responded to the latest accusations here:

Breaking the Silence

Over the past many months, I have watched the stories circulating the internet about me with horror and dismay. I’ve stayed quiet until now,...

journal.neilgaiman.com

Basically, he says he didn't do it, and if he did do it, it wasn't bad, but he will do better from now on, and is learning how to grow as a person, but he definitely didn't have sex with anyone without their consent and although he takes responsibility for any bad behaviour, it wasn't as bad as people are saying. Promise.

Amazingly I seem to have managed to navigate several sexual relationships without ever having had to resort to getting my partners to sign Non-Disclosure Agreements, but that's just me I guess.

Yeah, definitely some kettle logic there from Gaiman, veering between emphatic denial and a realization that what he did was wrong very wrong, but not that kind of wrong, and haven't we all made mistakes, but now he needs people to believe in him, to trust him over time, but not overnight (yikes, definitely not overnight!).

 

[zooterkin]

Yeah, definitely some kettle logic there from Gaiman, veering between emphatic denial and a realization that what he did was wrong very wrong, but not that kind of wrong, and haven't we all made mistakes, but now he needs people to believe in him, to trust him over time, but not overnight (yikes, definitely not overnight!).

I have no sympathy for him, even though I've felt some of his writing has been very evocative for me. I can see how he might have been able to convince himself that he wasn't doing anything wrong, given what some of his victims admitted to saying to him after encounters, but that doesn't justify it.

 

[angrysoba]

I have no sympathy for him, even though I've felt some of his writing has been very evocative for me. I can see how he might have been able to convince himself that he wasn't doing anything wrong, given what some of his victims admitted to saying to him after encounters, but that doesn't justify it.

I think if he was sincere that he had done nothing wrong, he would have been able to address each allegation directly, or even sue. These half-hearted denials and threadbare excuses just make the guilt more likely, in my opinion.

 

[Rolfe]

I have no sympathy for him, even though I've felt some of his writing has been very evocative for me. I can see how he might have been able to convince himself that he wasn't doing anything wrong, given what some of his victims admitted to saying to him after encounters, but that doesn't justify it.

I was a big fan, but I simply don't see how he comes out of this looking like the good guy.

 

[zooterkin]

I was a big fan, but I simply don't see how he comes out of this looking like the good guy.

Totally agree.

What I wasn't aware of, until comparatively recently, was that he'd been brought up by parents who were high up in Scientology, and was actively involved himself from a young age. That alone might account for some of his behaviour, all the more so when that Vulture article clearly suggests that that process involved him being mentally and physically abused as a child and he has yet to properly deal with the consequences. That doesn't excuse his actions, but may partially explain them.

 

[theprestige]

Totally agree.

What I wasn't aware of, until comparatively recently, was that he'd been brought up by parents who were high up in Scientology, and was actively involved himself from a young age. That alone might account for some of his behaviour, all the more so when that Vulture article clearly suggests that that process involved him being mentally and physically abused as a child and he has yet to properly deal with the consequences. That doesn't excuse his actions, but may partially explain them.

I'm to the point where I couldn't care less about hypothetical "explanations" for bad behavior. Unless I'm Neil Gaiman or his therapist, they're a red herring.

Neil Gaiman is obviously a fully-formed adult human being, capable of navigating western society and its norms of good behavior. He chose to flout those norms. We can hold him accountable for his choice, without having any concern for the origin of the urges he chose to indulge.