Neil Gaiman "cancelled"?

[smartcooky]

As far as I understand it, he would have to return to the country of the crime (e.g. NZ) to be tried for rape, which he wouldn't do.

Though I'm unclear, and especially unclear about how they try Human Traffficking charges.

Well, he was already investigated by the New Zealand police. They found there was no case to answer.

Neil Gaiman asks US court to dismiss lawsuit alleging NZ rape, sexual assault

While denying the claims from incidents on Waiheke Island, the British author claims if the case was heard it should be in New Zealand.

www.rnz.co.nz

"In or around November 2022, Pavlovich reported her allegations to law enforcement authorities in New Zealand. Those allegations were thoroughly investigated by New Zealand police, and no charges were brought"​

Furthermore, WhatsApp messages between Gaiman and Pavlovich tell a completely different story to the one she is telling the media, and if they were shown as evidence, any prospective charges in this country wouldn't get past the CLO

Warning: 9MB PDF

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/25551028/23-1-ex-a.pdf

IMO, she's simply a gold-digger looking for a payday

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well, he was already investigated by the New Zealand police. They found there was no case to answer.

Neil Gaiman asks US court to dismiss lawsuit alleging NZ rape, sexual assault

While denying the claims from incidents on Waiheke Island, the British author claims if the case was heard it should be in New Zealand.

www.rnz.co.nz

"In or around November 2022, Pavlovich reported her allegations to law enforcement authorities in New Zealand. Those allegations were thoroughly investigated by New Zealand police, and no charges were brought"​

Furthermore, WhatsApp messages between Gaiman and Pavlovich tell a completely different story to the one she is telling the media, and if they were shown as evidence, any prospective charges in this country wouldn't get past the CLO

Warning: 9MB PDF

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/25551028/23-1-ex-a.pdf

IMO, she's simply a gold-digger looking for a payday

Like any woman who went back to someone they now claim was abusing them time and again. They are all liars and should not be trusted.

Certainly no abuse victim would ever tell an abuser what they want to hear in a way that would look like consent.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Well, he was already investigated by the New Zealand police. They found there was no case to answer.

Neil Gaiman asks US court to dismiss lawsuit alleging NZ rape, sexual assault

While denying the claims from incidents on Waiheke Island, the British author claims if the case was heard it should be in New Zealand.

www.rnz.co.nz

"In or around November 2022, Pavlovich reported her allegations to law enforcement authorities in New Zealand. Those allegations were thoroughly investigated by New Zealand police, and no charges were brought"​

Furthermore, WhatsApp messages between Gaiman and Pavlovich tell a completely different story to the one she is telling the media, and if they were shown as evidence, any prospective charges in this country wouldn't get past the CLO

Warning: 9MB PDF

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/25551028/23-1-ex-a.pdf

IMO, she's simply a gold-digger looking for a payday

What's in the pdf?

Have you listened to the podcast series?

 

[smartcooky]

Like any woman who went back to someone they now claim was abusing them time and again. They are all liars and should not be trusted.

Certainly no abuse victim would ever tell an abuser what they want to hear in a way that would look like consent.

Not the same thing. Women who go back to their abusers do so because of fear... for themselves, for their family, or for their children or because they are financially dependent on their abuser. In those cases, the abuser has something they can hold over them, or threaten them with. That does apply here. Gaiman has got nothing to hold over Pavlovich - she did not need to send those messages.

In court, one of the first questions Gaiman's defence lawyer would ask Pavlovich on the stand in relation to those WhatsApp messages would be something like "were you lying then, or are you lying now?"

And if you don't believe there are women are prepared to lie about abuse, sexual abuse and rape, I have some names for you... and these are just a small selection of those that made the news. There are many, many more, in which the false accusations were believed and in which the men's lives were upended, and even more, like actual rape, that are never reported.

Trevor Bauer:

Woman who accused Trevor Bauer of sex assault is now charged with defrauding ex-MLB player

The woman sued former Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher Trevor Bauer in December 2022, accusing him of rape two years earlier that she said resulted in pregnancy in late 2020.

www.nbclosangeles.com

Brian Banks:

Falsely Accused: The Brian Banks Story - Legal Talk Network

In 2002, Brian Banks was a 17-year-old high school football star with a promising future ahead of him. Unfortunately, his life took a drastic turn when he

legaltalknetwork.com

Dan Jones:

Innocent man jailed after being accused of raping fiancée

Dan Jones' former fiancée accused him of horrific crimes including rape, which landed him in jail.

www.9news.com.au

David Evans, Collin Finnerty, and Reade Seligmann (The Duke Lacross team rape hoax victims)

Crystal Mangum admits to fabricating 2006 Duke lacrosse scandal accusations

Crystal Mangum, the woman who falsely accused three Duke men’s lacrosse players of rape in 2006, admitted she lied about the allegations and asked for David Evans, Collin Finnerty and Reade Seligmann’s forgiveness.

www.dukechronicle.com

Jordan Trengove

‘I went downhill’: man falsely accused of rape on becoming a hate figure

Jordan Trengove faced trial after being accused by Eleanor Williams after a night out in 2019

www.theguardian.com

 

[smartcooky]

What's in the pdf?

Have you listened to the podcast series?

Its the transcripts of all the WhatsApp messages between Gaiman & Pavlovich (those transcripts make her a liar)

and no, I don't do podcasts (hearing difficulties. I either read or do videos with captions)

 

[Orphia Nay]

Its the transcripts of all the WhatsApp messages between Gaiman & Pavlovich (those transcripts make her a liar)

and no, I don't do podcasts (hearing difficulties. I either read or do videos with captions)

Ah. Well, you're at a disadvantage, a bit like a blind man touching an elephant's tail and thinking it's a mouse.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Not the same thing. Women who go back to their abusers do so because of fear... for themselves, for their family, or for their children or because they are financially dependent on their abuser. In those cases, the abuser has something they can hold over them, or threaten them with. That does apply here. Gaiman has got nothing to hold over Pavlovich - she did not need to send those messages.

Clearly if they make excuses for the abuse it isn't abuse.

 

[smartcooky]

Worth reading this article by Karlyn Borysenko looked at from the falsely-accused's viewpoint

The Dark Side Of #MeToo: What Happens When Men Are Falsely Accused

We must all remember that the harm that has been inflicted on those who have experienced harassment and assault will not diminish when people who have done nothing wrong suffer the consequences of false accusations.

www.forbes.com

"There’s an impossible burden of proof on me. How am I supposed to prove that I didn’t do X from a person I can’t identify? It’s literally impossible."​

​

“Generally movements have pendulum swings, and the pendulum has now swung in the direction of ‘everyone’s guilty and don’t you dare assert your innocence."​

​

"But I challenge you to consider the consequences of those false allegations for the people they are targeting: When we assume the person being accused is guilty before conducting an investigation, or even hold onto that assumption if the outcome of that investigation does not prove their guilt, it can be incredibly damaging to their careers, their reputations, their relationships, and their mental health.​

​

It’s easy to say “it’s just 2%” and dismiss it out of hand. After all, 2 out of 100 is such a small insignificant number! But let’s take a moment to play my favorite game, fun with math:​

• According to the EEOC, there were 7,514 charges of sex-based harassment filed in 2019.
• At the low range of the spectrum, 2% of 7,514 is 150. At the higher end of 10%, it’s 750.
• That means that between 150 and 750 people were falsely accused in 2019. That’s between 150 and 750 people who could have had their careers ended, their reputations destroyed, and years of hard work come to a grinding halt when they did not deserve it if the presumption is that they are guilty without a fair process. And that was just last year [sic--- 2019).

And the EEOC data does not include the full breadth of reports of harassment since it does not include charges filed with state or local agencies or ones that never get reported through government channels. Potentially, the numbers could be even higher.​

 

[theprestige]

Its the transcripts of all the WhatsApp messages between Gaiman & Pavlovich (those transcripts make her a liar)

and no, I don't do podcasts (hearing difficulties. I either read or do videos with captions)

She was homeless and destitute, stranded on an island, at the mercy of her patron's good graces. I don't think anything she said to him during that period can be assumed to be a sincere and voluntary affirmation of consent.

 

[smartcooky]

Clearly if they make excuses for the abuse it isn't abuse.

They aren't "excuses", they are clear, unsolicited statements that she was enjoying what was happening between them.


Read the PDF

She was homeless and destitute, stranded on an island, at the mercy of her patron's good graces. I don't think anything she said to him during that period can be assumed to be a sincere and voluntary affirmation of consent.

Well, that's her claim anyway.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The most determined gold-diggers will even beat themselves up and then go to crisis centers with bruises or injuries before eventually returning time and time to their 'abusers' who obviously can't be the ones hurting them since they keep going back to them! Heck, sometimes they even beat themselves to death, or shoot themselves, or stab themselves repeatedly! Damned gold-diggers, amirite? /s

Love, dependency, and/or other factors can and do absolutely make people come back to their abusers, even when they are being sexually abused, beaten, or even when their lives are at risk. That's absolutely not an indicator that abuse is not happening. To the contrary, it can be really hard for a survivor of abuse to leave an abusive relationship.

(Disclaimer: I haven't followed this thread for long and so I don't know peoples' views and I'm really struggling to tell who's being sarcastic and who aren't)

Thanks to the person who posted the link confirming that false accusations are incredibly rare, though.

 

[smartcooky]

Thanks to the person who posted the link confirming that false accusations are incredibly rare, though.

Do not mistake "incredibly rare" for "never happens"

As few as 2% of sex-based harassment charges are false... 2% is incredibly rare
In 2019, there were 7,514 charges of sex-based harassment filed.
2% of 7,514 is 150.
Those 150 people who were falsely accused would gain no comfort from knowing their cases were "incredibly rare"

 

[Orphia Nay]

Nobody in here has denied false accusations occur, so you're flogging a dead horse, smartcooky. This appears to be a hobby horse of yours, and it's looking like you're not open to any evidence abuse occured, you've already got a set mindset.

Disclaimer: I think the charges are worth investigating further, and I'm not a default accusation-believer, for instance I'm inclined to side with Depp not Heard.

 

[smartcooky]

Nobody in here has denied false accusations occur, so you're flogging a dead horse, smartcooky. This appears to be a hobby horse of yours

There's a reason for that... As I have stated before, I have been on the wrong end of such an accusation - an accusation was an attempt to extort me. That accusation fell apart when it was determined that I was in another country when the alleged assualt was supposed to have taken place. She ended up being charged with making a false complaint. My personal experiences make me very, very suspicious of these types of accusations when they come up years, even decades after the event, against well-know people without any corroboration.

..and it's looking like you're not open to any evidence abuse occurred, you've already got a set mindset.

Keep in mind, I am ONLY talking about the Pavlovich accusations. There have been others, but I am not interested in those.

I've read the evidence... I am not convinced by it. But have seen the evidence that there didn't seem to be a problem in her communications with him at the time, and later. Further, she has yet to come up with any evidence that she told anyone else about it (unlike, say, E. Jean Carrol, who told several people about The Fat Orange Turd's sexual assault on her almost straight away.

Disclaimer: I think the charges are worth investigating further, and I'm not a default accusation-believer, for instance I'm inclined to side with Depp not Heard.

Pavlovich laid a complaint against Gaiman with the NZ Police... They investigated, and found no case to answer. What evidence they found was so weak and so contradictory, they didn't think it was even worth taking the case to Crown Law (our equivalent of the CPS in the England/Wales, the Procurator Fiscal in Scotland or a District Attourney in the US). How do I know this when the Police have yet to comment one way or the other? Lets just say, I have contacts in the Auckland City Police District, and leave it at that.

 

[Orphia Nay]

If the "evidence" is her text messages to him, that's like claiming God is real because he's in the bible.

She was roleplaying, playing his willing partner. She was financially trapped in the relationship.

She also told her friend about her unwillingness. Was the friend interviewed by the NZ police?

 

[smartcooky]

If the "evidence" is her text messages to him, that's like claiming God is real because he's in the bible.

How so?

She was roleplaying, playing his willing partner. She was financially trapped in the relationship.

Its that a proven fact or just your opinion.

She also told her friend about her unwillingness. Was the friend interviewed by the NZ police?

I don't know, but I will be able to find out.

 

[Orphia Nay]

How so?

Read my next sentence in that post.

Its that a proven fact or just your opinion.

It's a phrase, read the following ones.

I don't know, but I will be able to find out.

Do.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

There's a reason for that...

Frankly, I don't care about your reason for being an apparent mysogonist with a very low treshold for not believing survivors. If you're going to disbelieve an accusation of abuse on a skeptic's forum, you're supposed to have some sort of foundation for it, not stupid strawmen ("u believing the victim means u think false accusations dont exist!!") and ignorant conclusions based on text messages.

 

[Lithrael]

While I don't mind cutting SC some slack due to his personal experiences, I do find it foolish to use one's unusual personal anecdotes as a baseline, as opposed to a way to know that sometimes 'people don’t think it be like it is, but it do.' It's a risk but not a high one and in his case it was brought to attention and the false accuser was charged.
OTOH it looks like he is only expressing limited doubt, not that the overall accusations ought to be downplayed or anything.

Think he's being too harsh on the plaintiff if his opinion on what went down doesn't turn out to be very well founded.

 

[smartcooky]

Frankly, I don't care about your reason for being an apparent mysogonist with a very low treshold for not believing survivors. If you're going to disbelieve an accusation of abuse on a skeptic's forum, you're supposed to have some sort of foundation for it, not stupid strawmen ("u believing the victim means u think false accusations dont exist!!") and ignorant conclusions based on text messages.

I don't know how things work where you live, but where I live (which is the jurisdiction where any trial would be held) we have something called "a presumption of innocence". When there have been facts presented in a court of law then I will make an assessment based on that. Until then, this is nothing more than a case of "he said v she said".

Note for @Orphia Nay: I asked my friend at Auckland City Police this weekend if they could tell me anything more. They said they would not give me details, but said they knew the investigators thought both she and Gaiman were not being truthful about many of the allegations.

If she was being dishonest, Crown Law would not bother prosecuting. Harsh lesson for victims here is to stick to the facts, don't embellish or tell lies.