Need Help with Iron Microsphere Quotes

[DaveThomasNMSR]

Yes, we know that the incompetent fools who wrote that paper made a ridiculously vague series of statements and concluded something which their results directly contradicted. Did you have something of your own to add to this particular piece of idiocy, or are you simply spamming a piece of pseudoscience that we're all familiar with?

Dave

Actually, Dave R., moorea34 was providing exactly what I had asked for, namely an example of Harrit claiming that the iron-rich microspheres prove that a "very high temperature reaction had occurred." Thanks, moorea34!

Just finished the video of the burning of steel wool samples, the YouTube should be forthcoming in a day or two!

Cheers, Dave

 

[Dave Rogers]

Actually, Dave R., moorea34 was providing exactly what I had asked for, namely an example of Harrit claiming that the iron-rich microspheres prove that a "very high temperature reaction had occurred." Thanks, moorea34!

Arrgh, sorry to both of you. I can only blame a combination of DFS and carrying on the usual thermite argument with Miragememories. Still, as I said in the whistleblowers thread, friendly fire incidents happen from time to time...

Dave

 

[DaveThomasNMSR]

Arrgh, sorry to both of you. I can only blame a combination of DFS and carrying on the usual thermite argument with Miragememories. Still, as I said in the whistleblowers thread, friendly fire incidents happen from time to time...

Dave

No problemo, Dave!

Thanks also to Josarhus for digging up the Harrit video! I may end up using the Bentham quote to complete the Thermitic Triumvirate (Gage, Jones, Harrit), we'll see.

Cheers, Dave

 

[beachnut]

Well I guess that proves WTC was packed to the gills with steel wool.

Too funny.

MM

The iron spheres are not pure iron, they have other elements in them and they do not need temperatures as high as the melting point of steel, or the temperature of a thermite reaction to form.
The Jones junk science paper proves the iron spheres formed at temperatures below that of melted steel, but you don't do the research, you don't have the knowledge, you don't care to learn. You support blindly the thermite paper, which debunks itself, and the proof is in the paper.

 

[ozeco41]

Arrgh, sorry to both of you. I can only blame a combination of DFS and carrying on the usual thermite argument with Miragememories. Still, as I said in the whistleblowers thread, friendly fire incidents happen from time to time...

Dave

Isn't it a funny tilted playing field we have here.

'Debunkers' and all the rational honest people are expected to be 100% correct all the time every time.

Whilst truthers and trolls expect to get away with anything up to 100% wrong - all the time - every time.

 

[TsuDhoNimh]

I used to work for a company that did a lot of plasma cutter work to make parts ... iron nanospheres abounded in the workshop.

Nasty lung-clogging little things!

 

[alienentity]

No problemo, Dave!

Thanks also to Josarhus for digging up the Harrit video! I may end up using the Bentham quote to complete the Thermitic Triumvirate (Gage, Jones, Harrit), we'll see.

Cheers, Dave

I love the smell of pwnage in the morning!

 

[Kent1]

Thanks for all the articles and suggestions! We did the experiment this morning, and it was a smashing success!

[qimg]http://www.nmsr.org/fe_scan.jpg[/qimg]

We got Iron, we got Micro, we got Spheres, and all that just with some steel wool and a BIC lighter.

Still hoping for a Harrit soundbite, if any know of one lurking out there.

Cheers, Dave

Yep, also iron dust has an ignition temp of 430C. The same ignition temp as the red grey chips.

Minimum ignition temperature, iron dust cloud: 430C (805F).
http://www.analytyka.com.mx/tabla periodica/MSDS/Fe/IRON POWDER.htm

Smaller bits of iron will burn and form spheres at much lower temps.

Here's another pic of iron wool
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bang/handson/steel_wool.shtml

 

[Miragememories]

Yep, also iron dust has an ignition temp of 430C. The same ignition temp as the red grey chips.

Minimum ignition temperature, iron dust cloud: 430C (805F).
http://www.analytyka.com.mx/tabla periodica/MSDS/Fe/IRON POWDER.htm

Smaller bits of iron will burn and form spheres at much lower temps.

Here's another pic of iron wool
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bang/handson/steel_wool.shtml

Too bad the red chips were not iron dust.

MM

 

[Kent1]

Too bad the red chips were not iron dust.

MM

Never claimed they were. So maybe I'm mistaken. So there was zero iron within these chips?
OK, I know you don't think that. But I have no idea what you've been trying to say lately.

 

[DaveThomasNMSR]

Too bad the red chips were not iron dust.

MM

Well, as long as there was no iron dust or filaments or iron in any small shapes, in the entire WTC complex, then the microspheres in WTC dust could still be from Thermite.

Wait - there certainly WAS iron dust and small pieces of iron in the towers!

So it's not certain the lil' spheres are thermitic, at all! That's too bad!

Thanks for the BBC article, Kent1. That's a keeper.

Still working on the YouTube - production values take time!

Dave

 

[Miragememories]

Well, as long as there was no iron dust or filaments or iron in any small shapes, in the entire WTC complex, then the microspheres in WTC dust could still be from Thermite.

Wait - there certainly WAS iron dust and small pieces of iron in the towers!

So it's not certain the lil' spheres are thermitic, at all! That's too bad!

Thanks for the BBC article, Kent1. That's a keeper.

Still working on the YouTube - production values take time!

Dave

Yes it is important to present your misinformation as credibly as possible.

MM

 

[Horatius]

Yes it is important to present your misinformation as credibly as possible.

MM

Ironically, the most truthful thing a truther has ever said.

 

[DaveThomasNMSR]

Yes it is important to present your misinformation as credibly as possible.

MM

Sorry, but the only misinformation needing correcting here is the Truther mantra that only thermite can account for iron microspheres.

 

[NoahFence]

Well I guess that proves WTC was packed to the gills with steel wool.

Too funny.

MM

Unreal.

You know, admitting you don't know a damn thing, and being thankful for the input of people who DO know what they're doing isn't altogether a bad thing.

 

[cantonear1968]

Sorry, but the only misinformation needing correcting here is the Truther mantra that only thermite can account for iron microspheres.

Huh!

Funny thing!

I would have thought that would have been obvious from the evidence you presented, Dave!

 

[Miragememories]

"Yes it is important to present your misinformation as credibly as possible."

"Sorry, but the only misinformation needing correcting here is the Truther mantra that only thermite can account for iron microspheres."

emphasis is mine

I do not accept that it is a commonly held belief that only thermite can account for iron microspheres.

"The presence of metallic microspheres implies that these metals were once molten, so that surface tension pulled the droplets into a roughly spherical shape. Then the molten droplets solidified in air, preserving the information that they were once molten in the spherical shape as well as chemical information."

It is important to determine the chemical signature of the microspheres when associating their existence with the presence of thermite.

"There ARE certain types of microspheres that would perhaps be hard to explain in the debris of an "ordinary" office fire, but so far I have not seen any in the analytical data on the WTC dust published by Jones or anyone else."

Here is a summarized and reduced for brevity exchange between Dr. Frank Greening and Dr. Steven Jones regarding the cause behind the iron microspheres.

"I will forward the spectrum of the incinerator ash as well. It shows microspheres and iron is present in significant concentrations too...my good friend Carrol Sanders has reminded me that fly ash is frequently used as aggregate in lightweight concrete, so microspheres may have been present in the Twin Tower's concrete even before the fires of 9/11. Given that so much concrete was pulverized during the collapse of the towers, fly ash debris would be present in large amounts in the rubble pile."

"The plot you provided is from burning COAL, not paper, plastics, wood etc. Or are you saying there was coal in the WTC? Where is the oxygen in the spectrum? This coal (your reference) was burned at high temperatures -- the caption refers to "high stoker temperature." This is a significant difference from the WTC fires -- or -- Are you claiming such high temps occurred in the WTC fires? Hot enough to produce iron-rich spheres? (Iron melts at 1538 C) The oxygen content is significant, yet the spectrum appears to be skewed, cut off at low X-ray energies... please explain -- how much Oxygen was present? Oxygen must be present in a spectrum to provide a match with spectra I have shown -- not the case in the one example you provided! All of the iron-aluminum spheres I have found in the WTC dust show abundant OXYGEN. Often O is the principal element in the spheres."

"Now I see you are quibbling about me sending you the spectrum of coal ash, asking me somewhat rhetorically: Was coal being burnt in the Twin Towers? Here, I would say you are missing my point which is that the mineral matter in natural carbon-based fuels forms an ash residue after the fuel is combusted that always contains Al, Si, K, Ca, and Fe – precisely the most abundant elements, (after the ubiquitous oxygen), in your WTC samples as revealed by their EDX spectra!"

"...some time ago, we crushed a concrete sample obtained from the WTC rubble, used magnetic concentration, and looked for iron-rich spheres. There were NONE found.

This coal (your reference) was burned at high temperatures -- the caption refers to "high stoker temperature." This is a significant difference from the WTC fires -- or -- Are you claiming such high temps occurred in the WTC fires? Hot enough to produce iron-rich spheres? (Iron melts at 1538 C)."

"Frank [Dr. Frank Greening] at that time I did not know that magnetite was removed from fly ash used in concrete by magnetic drum separation. Basically a big barrel filled with magnets that rolls over the fly ash, and picks out the magnetite so it can be sold. Basically the same technique used by Dr. Jones."

"I do not believe that a temperature of 1536 deg C (or higher!) is necessary to form iron-rich microspheres. These type of particles are formed in incinerators that never get above 1200 deg C. In fact most of the chemistry involved in forming microspheres takes place in the temperature range 600 - 1000 deg C, well within the range of temperatures expected for the WTC fires. Think about it, if a waste incinerator gets above 1536 deg C the incinerator walls, which are usually made of carbon steel or low alloy steels, will melt!

The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. Iron is transported as a volatile di or tri-chloride. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. As the very least it will be oxide (probably Fe3O4) coated and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. This readily combines with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form an iron-rich aluminosilicate microsphere on cooling. Other elements such as K and Ca are also readily incorporated into these melts. This is the chemistry of CLAY minerals!

As long as Jones' microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite."

"...you state: "Now this is indeed quite strange because Si is definitely NOT an ingredient of commercial thermite."

This statement is demonstrably incorrect, and indeed I demonstrated that Si is in fact a component of the sample of commercial thermite I tested -- both in the unreacted thermite sample (in with iron oxide chips) and in the spheres which formed from reacting the commercial thermite. This observation I made was and is important to the discussion. Experiments trump authoritative statements from you or anyone else."

So far I have little substantive research contradicting Dr. Steven Jones's argument.

But I will keep looking.

MM

 

[twinstead]

So far I have little substantive research contradicting Dr. Steven Jones's argument.

Only because you have decided to re-define "substantive research" to suit your needs.

 

[NoahFence]

emphasis is mine

I do not accept that it is a commonly held belief that only thermite can account for iron microspheres.

It absolutely is in your circles. As is the belief that all explosions = explosives.

 

[DaveThomasNMSR]

Video is up on YouTube

Here it is:



Suggestions and comments regarding improvements will be considered. Perhaps even a second edition?

Thanks for all the clips & comments thus far!

Cheers, Dave