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Need help evaluating Platos ideas

eowyn

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eowyn
Joined
Nov 1, 2002
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I need some advice. I am at the very early, distressed stage, of attempting to evaluate some of platos ideas.

I am having trouble even identifying the ideas that are worth evaluating. Half the ideas I have provisionally identifed don't even make sense, eg (taken from the lecture notes handed out)

"We have a just state, when the trader, the soldier, and the guardian each do their own business"

The Sun - "The Good is the source of Truth"

The Story of Gyges

Two ideas that I think I can write on are "the Line" and "the cave".

Any suggestions?
 
It seems to me young man/lady that you are looking for people to do your homework. :mad:

What does " I have to start to evaluate some(sic-- how many?) of Plato's ideas" mean?

I particularly liked this gem:
I am having trouble even identifying the ideas that are worth evaluating.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:

"The Ring of Gyges " is not an idea, it's an allegory. Read the whole passage and put your butt on a library's chair and start studying. :mad:
 
Esther is right.

If you have specific questions then I would be happy to help. Though it has been 20 years since I studied Plato.

There is an enormous ammount of data on the web. I would recomend Google. If you want a short cut use the word "thesis" in your search.
 
I need some advice. I am at the very early, distressed stage, of attempting to evaluate some of platos ideas.

I am having trouble even identifying the ideas that are worth evaluating. Half the ideas I have provisionally identifed don't even make sense, eg (taken from the lecture notes handed out)

"We have a just state, when the trader, the soldier, and the guardian each do their own business"

Plato lived in a small cabin outside of Athens. One day a door-to-door trader came by selling “Guardian” home security systems. Plato bought one. Someone broke in and stole the system so he hired a soldier to stand guard. The soldier was actually in the employ of the trader, who it turns out was the thief. As soon as Plato left, the soldier stole Plato’s harp and skipped town with the trader. The moral of the story is ‘never give a philosopher an even break’.

The Sun - "The Good is the source of Truth"
“Good” was a Greek name for an island that made particularly good wine. The statement is an allusion that a sip of the wine brought one as close to truth as you could legally get.

The Story of Gyges
Gyges was a neighbor of Aristotle. They used to fight over the correct settings for the sundial.


Two ideas that I think I can write on are "the Line" and "the cave".

Any suggestions?

Go with what you know. Glad to be of help.
 
I'm not looking for someone to do my homework for me.

I think what i am really after is someone to tell me to calm down and stop panicking, and for someone to suggest a starting point, because I I haven't figured out what are useful questions.

The lecturer said certain things, but even going away and thinking about them, I can't see how or where he got them from.

eg Ring of Gyges.
I read (admittedly an extract he provided) this story - How do you go from that story to conclude that morality is its own reward? Was that the point of that story?
 
eowyn said:
I'm not looking for someone to do my homework for me.
Click to expand...
Your questions suggested otherwise.

think what i am really after is someone to tell me to calm down and stop panicking, and for someone to suggest a starting point, because I I haven't figured out what are useful questions.
Click to expand...
Your opening post demonstrates clearly that you haven't read the passages in question.First read the passage at your pace, read it a couple of times and if you don't understand it you have the time to panic as much as you wish. :)
eg Ring of Gyges.
I read (admittedly an extract he provided) this story - How do you go from that story to conclude that morality is its own reward? Was that the point of that story?
Click to expand...
I have a regular client who is an expert in the platonic philosophy, he applies the socratic method everywhere, even in... ahem.So, let's do it his way.

Now. In my opinion this is a useful way to do business in life.

Pose the right question, you might need to try a couple of times in order to find the right question but you will eventually find it. By trying to pose the right question you calm down immediately-- it happens to me all the time when I suffer fron anxiety attacks: " What shoes do I need to wear with this dress, what lipstick shall I put on"?I pose the right question and the anxiety flies away....Now, let's return to less exciting things than lipsticks and shoes.

Take in your hands the second book of "The Republic", take a piece of paper and a pen and a tall caramel frappucino from the Starbucks next corner.
Open the book.

1. What is the topic of the discussion?

JusticeThis is the first and last reply I am giving to you ready to consume!!( :mad: )

2. Who narrates the story of Gyges?
Go to the commentary of your book and see who this guy is--take down his name

3. Read the story a couple of times or as many times you need in order that you are able to narrate it yourself in a simple manner.

4. Who is Gyges?What does he do for a living?

A Shepherd

5. Why a shepherd?
Hint. No nobility and probably no education--this is something really bad according to Plato.

5. What does he do?

He steals a golden ring from a corpse

6. A shepherd wearing a golden ring? What is the allegory that hides here. Look for the previous hint.... ;)

7. What's so special about this ring apart from the fact that is made of gold.

Read the story, damn it!!!!

8. So, once this uneducated-without any nobility Gyges discovers what this ring is able to do what use does it make of it?

Answer to the question now!!

9. One more time. What is the topic of our discussion?

Justice

10. So, let's draw the line that connects all these.

Discussion about Justice ----> The allegory of the uneducated peasant who steals a golden ring from a corpse( there is a refined hint from Plato's part here, you will be able to trace it if you think) ----> the ring is magic-----> the shepherd uses the ring to be unjust. UNJUST! Ha! Here we are! Under which circumstances one can become unjust?

What makes people unjust according to the narrator of the story? The knowledge that they cannot be caught. So, the absence of Law and the absence of legal consequences and restrictions can make people unjust.

Got it? ;)

When _ I _ am able to get something it means that everybody can. Even an Australian.:p

[When you read all this I want you to consider if this allegory is a succesful one-- I mean a magical ring that can help you break the law?? :rolleyes: Helloooo. Also, I check the site Kopji proposed. Not good in my opinion but this is just MY opinion.--Google for the story of "The Wife of Caundales" from Herodotus' "Histories". Find the inner connection between the two stories that have been written with a 50 years distance ( maybe more but I am out of fingers in counting , I have only 20! ) and point the similarities and the differences and take an A in this damn course!

Another hint for you: Plato enjoyed to use in his allegories well known stories and who was the greatest story teller of antiquity? Herodotus of course- Plato did the same with Atlantis
 
Esther

Thank you for your time in responding.

I am only about 1/2 way through The Republic.

I had read that passage on Gyges, (and again tonight) but straight after it, plato goes off on a (seeming) tangent. I now understand that I am wasting my time looking for a succinct response by Plato, to that story.
 
Eowyn, there are people that have devoted their lives in studying 10 or 15 lines from the whole work of Plato without arriving to draw any definite conclusions. Do not expect to understand Plato in a short period of time. It's Hybris! ;)

Of course you should not expect Plato to reveal answers and the truth, he is not interested in that , he is interested in showing things from multiple aspects and in shedding light to every dark or hidden " angle" an issue might have.

The Republic, is not about the issues of a State,as people think but it's an essay on Justice. Justice ,eowyn, is a vast topic and in the humble opinion of the dancer is an artificial notion but this is a discussion for another thread and some other time.

"Gyge's Ring" is the first of seven myths that belong to the same group, the first three come from The Republic. They are seven myths that like seven stars they form the Pleiades of the Platonic work. Huh-oh. I sound like Mr. Iacchus right now. :)

What so ever. While reading The Republic try to sketch on a piece of paper its plan.

The discussion is about Justice and it's between Glaucon, his brother ( Ademas) and Socrates. Glaucon speaks in defense of the previous speaker Tracymachus ( the sophist) who was debating Socrates on the following subject. What is superior Justice or Injustice?Socrates of course claims that Justice is superior but Glaucon suggests that injustice is inherent to human nature this is the reason why is superior to justice and in order to support his opinion, he narrates the allegory of the ring of Gyges.

It's not the end of the world. You just need time to read all that and let them rest in your brain for a while before returning to them and evaluating what you have read.

If you are young and student what's your job other than to study? Spend time in reading. Studies need time and devotion and you need to melt your nice butt on a chair.Studies should be like a love affair but not of the platonic kind! ;)

Keep us posted about your progress.
 
Esther
Thanks. Your point was so profound it might bear repeating in these times.

What makes people unjust according to the narrator of the story?

The knowledge that they cannot be caught. So, the absence of Law and the absence of legal consequences and restrictions can make people unjust.
Click to expand...

...and Sheesh, everyone's a site critic. A place I more typically rely on is Stanford University online. Here is a top level link that has some mirrors for Europe & Australia. (look up "P" for Plato in the index...

http://plato.stanford.edu/
 
Kopji this site is very good. I had no idea. I guess that this is what happens when you spend your time reading Vogue and nothing else. You miss many things. :)

I am re-reading this thread and the frustration of Eowyn reminded me of the frustration of Plato's scholars when they are asked to discuss the myths ( especially Gyge's ring). Some of them have suggested that we should remove them from Plato's work because they do not make sense!!

What has intrigued the scholars with "Gyge's Ring" ( and I am posting this for our friend Eowyn mostly) is the magical ring. Do people need a super-natural force ( magic) to break the Law? No they do not, so why Plato uses this little trick? Of course in both similar myths " Caundales's Wife" and "Gyge's ring" is the individual that takes the final decision and decides to break the law ( by committing the ultimate crime-a homicide!!) and become unjust but still why use super-natural power to accomplish that?

I will leave this to Eowyn to answer. :)
 
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