Need Advice!!

[MRC_Hans]

I can only join the chorous: You did right to leave. What the others do is their business, don't mess with them, show a nice face, be polite, but do not argue with anybody. It is painful enough for you as it is.

About any new church: Just remember that you do not need a church to meet God. God is anywhere. You are not leaving God, only some organization that calls itself a church.

Hans

 

[Ruby]

Re: Re: Need Advice!!

Ruby, there is nothing wrong with being a mouse.

I would definitely reply - not to argue his point of view but to put your own view.
But I would not continue to correspond with him if he continues to harass you.

And, Ruby, when you reply......use a big pencil.

regards,
BillyJoe

 

[Ruby]

Re: Re: Need Advice!!

Looks like you've already gotten lots of good advice. Nozed and Max both already said the main things I would have said (and did it better and shorter than I'd have been able). (And, a note to BillyJoe: my cat strongly agrees with you that there is nothing wrong with being a mouse, and said she would love to meet you in the flesh to discuss this more, perhaps over dinner...)
One thing that grabbed my eye in your post was the line quoted above. It sounds to me like your friend's husband is turning the matter upside-down.

If I read it correctly, he seems to be taking the position that, unless you can prove to him you are right, you have no right to leave. That's a neat way to control people! It should be just the reverse: unless he (or others) can disprove the things that make you uncomfortable, you have every right to leave!

Expecting you to stay in a church because he doesn't share your feelings is silly. If the positions were reversed, would he be willilng to leave the church if he couldn't prove to someone else that he was right?

It's your life, not his.

Very well said!

 

[Ruby]

The part that your former pastor wishes to be looked on as more than a man jumps at me.
There are plenty of highly educated and talented people in this world who don't attempt to extend their 'authority' beyond their specialty.
Doctors let the mechanic fix the car and the electrician wire the house even though they're not going to take medical advice from either.
Ministers are granted broad reaching authority on the basis they're god's agents and representatives. When they go off on tangents regulating all the aspects of existence they feel they're qualified to, regardless of their knowledge and experience in those areas they're over the lines, PERIOD!!!
From what yu've posted I think you've come to terms with this in many ways. It's not a great deal different than when a person begins to find out their parents are far less of gods and way more regular people that disillusionment and insecurity sets in. As adults we can appreciate and value the contributions and difficulties of parents from an adult perspective and respect parents MORE because they weren't supernaturally endowed. A minister who claims a supernatural seal of authority and ceases to identify themself as a fellow sojourner on life's journey is bad news.
Use as much tact and diplomacy as you can muster so as to maintain the friendship of the people you value from that community but if they atempt to browbeat you into a penitent and guilt-filled return to their flock you'll need to wash your hands of them.

Yep, it freaked me out when my Pastor said for us not to look on him as a man. He also said he is "sin-free", which is just the same as saying "I can do no wrong". I found it disturbing and strange.

 

[Ruby]

uhh.. she said it was e-mail, if she burns it and sends it back he'd get a big backage of melted metal and plastic.

maybe not a bad idea, but then she wouldn't be able to tell us how it went.

The whole thing does sound like the start of a cult. The head is to be considered inerrant, not to be questioned. Greater control over member's lives. Shunning (disconnection, disfellowship, whatever they want to call it) former members. Definitely a good time to get out, and maybe look up some material on exit counseling.

Exactly!!

 

[Ruby]

Well, I'd print it out first...

Although, sending back a mangled computer would be a sweet idea, too. My kids know of a virus she could e-mail him that would annihilate his system.

Ruby, I'd hit a Christian book store and pick up the book, Churches That Abuse. After one of the incidents I went through, I read through that book, and found a lot of help there. I'd recommend a few others, as well, as soon as I can recall titles, but for God's sake, GET OUT OF THERE. This yobbo is not a pastor, he is, as Marc said, a cult leader.

Any time you have a leader who cannot be challenged, you are in trouble. He may have been anointed by God to lead, but he's still just a man. He's prone to make mistakes, and right now, he's making some serious whoppers.

As to your "friends," and this paranoia trip, demanding to know names and the like, I say f*** 'em. First of all, you are never to have a sort of "secret" group of leaders within a church, if for no other reason, than because there is no accountability. Second, you don't play those sort of games because it does not strengthen the pastor, it undermines his authority. Third, it gets into the games played by the Nicolaitans, (and no, this ain't the place to go into gnositicism and the like), which is prohibited as stated in Revelation. (God, I'm sorry I brought that up! Now Billiefan is going to show up and start riffing...)

Friends like this, you do not need. I suggest you tell your friend's husband that if he were really a Christian, he'd be spending more time LISTENING rather than TALKING to you. I'm sick of this crap, this game that if someone leaves a body of believers, it can't possibly be the fault of the leadership. In your case, it's not only the fault of the leaders, but the fault of members of the congregation that are sitting by and allowing this jerk with a title run your church into the ground. That's not even SMART!

Tell you one thing, kiddo: A couple of good suggestions have been floated. Why not connect with some of your other friends, find out what you have in common theologically speaking, and put together a small church. Keep it open, keep it real, keep it in the heart. Might work. Sure can't do any worse than this abusive pack of liars you're leaving behind.

Heaven only knows, you and your family deserve better.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I shall have to look it up and buy it.

I was surprised that this guy from church emailed me. He usually believes such a thing is wrong to do. My hubby and I have had run-ins in the past with this man...and even his wife. His wife had said some harsh things to me one time through email and my hubby got P'od and emailed her back. Her hubby got mad and emailed my hubby saying for him to never email his wife like that and to only go through him. My hubby called him and told him off as well as trying to straighten it out.

He is a jerk to the max. He won't study his bible or learn a thing, but he thinks he is called of God to preach. He used to go to a rescue mission to preach. Our friends (who have now left the church) went with him to lead the music. They were appalled many times at the lack of preparation or sheer stupidity of this guy. He was preaching about Jesus's ministry on the earth one time, and could not remember how many years Jesus actually spent preaching. Any Sunday school child can tell you that Jesus ministry lasted three and a half years. The couple who went with him to do music had to mime to him how long Jesus' ministry lasted. Another time, after the music ended, the couple who lead it asked how many people there knew Christ. Everyone put their hands up. Then this idiot preacher got up and preached a strong salvation type message.......after it had been shown that all were "saved".

It was frustrating when our Pastor also put this guy in charge of the mens ministry. My hubby would not even go to the meetings.

I guess I don't care for this guy much but in another way, I love him...the pity side of me loves him.

 

[Ruby]

It sounds like the friend you met is being encouraged to shun you. You don't have to cut that tie, you can leave that decision up to her. Maybe she will find the courage to fight it, maybe not.

I doubt she will. She is sort of meek, naive, and easy led. I feel so sorry for her. I want to help her, but my hands are tied...especially now that her a%%hole husband is sticking his nose into my email communication with her.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby, it sounds to me like you need to extract your sense of self-worth from that 'group' and place it solely on yourself and your immediate family.

There's my stab at armchair psychology for today.

Good job!! Thanks!!!

 

[Ruby]

I agree. It never harmed anyone to be the bigger person in a situation like this. The best way to handle encounters with your friends from your former church is to be extra friendly to them and to act as if nothing happened. That will demonstrate that you are willing to remain friends despite the conflict and that you do not hold grudges. If they are not up to the task, then it is their loss and their failure.

The satisfaction you will derive from this is in knowing that you did the right thing by demonstrating moral courage and genuine kindness and forgiveness. If you salvage some friendships, you will get further satisfaction. If not, then you may comfort yourself that such persons may not have really been your trusted friends after all.

Good luck with it. Do what your heart tells you to do.

AS

Thanks. So far, I don't think I am being very gracious about any of it. I am just tired of being kind to those who Sh&t on me!!

 

[Ruby]

Actually, Ruby, the fact that you looked your friend from the church in the eye and are sticking up for yourself, shows you've grown more by leaving the church than you ever would have by staying. Churchs like that want women to not only be meek, they want them to be totally unquestioning. Be polite, be classy, but most of all BE GONE!

Best wishes, Kitty

Oh, you are so right!! I feel a lot more confident and courageous than I have in years.

My Ex- church used to be very strong on teaching that men and women were equal and that women should be able to preach and hold leadership positions, but before we left, our Pastor started saying that our church was going to be built on "Mighty men". He was shoving women aside and putting all this focus on men. It was strange.....as was everything else he was coming out with.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby, this is truly the time to "turn the other cheek". If you are happy with your decisions lately, and it does sound like you are, don't let their ranting get to you ever.

This is a bit like when a marriage goes bad - it starts out good but gets so bad that the separation becomes inevitable. But even after the divorce, you still want to rant and question about why it was so good before but then got so bad.

This is why you need to move on, not only figuratively but literally too - find something else to do, more important and satisfying in your life. Don't look back with anguish at those people who made your life a mess and beat yourself up about it - they were the problem and they are history now.

And I do pity the wife of the "cowboy" - I suspect, from your description of the conversation, that she is probably thinking much along the lines that you were not so very long ago... Maybe you will not lose that friendship...

cheers
Zep

You are probably right!

 

[Ruby]

I can only join the chorous: You did right to leave. What the others do is their business, don't mess with them, show a nice face, be polite, but do not argue with anybody. It is painful enough for you as it is.

About any new church: Just remember that you do not need a church to meet God. God is anywhere. You are not leaving God, only some organization that calls itself a church.

Hans

Thanks!!!

 

[Dancing David]

Sorry to read this Ruby, you go girl!

I really like the Unitarian Universalist church, it is a church but not a doctrine.

 

[Ruby]

Sorry to read this Ruby, you go girl!

I really like the Unitarian Universalist church, it is a church but not a doctrine.

Yep, there is a small Unitarian church not far from where I live. I was even able to find it's website online. It sounds very interesting. Still, I don't think I'm quite ready to jump into any church type situation.....although, I must admit, I am feeling lonely and feeling the need for some social interaction.

 

[ntech]

Ruby,

You owe him nothing. He simply wanted the information to hurt or punish the person who told you that. My wife and I decided one year to get away from all the people in our lives that drain our energy. I am so happy you are standing up for yourself and the truth whatever you decide that is.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,

You owe him nothing. He simply wanted the information to hurt or punish the person who told you that. My wife and I decided one year to get away from all the people in our lives that drain our energy. I am so happy you are standing up for yourself and the truth whatever you decide that is.

Thanks!

I sent this guy an email in reply telling him that I am not giving out names. I also let him know that I question his motives. I think I am going to really tick him off!!!!

 

[MRC_Hans]

Thanks!

I sent this guy an email in reply telling him that I am not giving out names. I also let him know that I question his motives. I think I am going to really tick him off!!!!

Heheh, I'd like to amend my advice about being nice: Be nice if you want to avoid trouble. If you feel more like being nasty, however: Go for it!


Hans

 

[Nova Land]

I'd like to amend my advice about being nice: Be nice if you want to avoid trouble. If you feel more like being nasty, however: Go for it!

Ruby: you have every right to be angry, and to express that anger. If this were a movie and there were a scene with you telling this person off in strong colorful language, I'd be mentally cheering right along with the rest of the audience.

However, this being real life, I think Hans' original advice still has a lot of merit. A reason to avoid being nasty to this person, if you can, is for the sake of the other people still in his clutches.

If you respond to him harshly, he will be able to take your words and offer them to those who have not escaped him as "proof" that you are an angry, spiteful, bad person -- someone they should avoid and pay no attention to. Remember how he was able to attack you from the pulpit even when you were still there? Imagine the performance he can put on, reading from your letter or "quoting" what you've said aloud, when you're not there.

You can't stop him from lying, but you can avoid giving him ammunition. If he makes speeches about all the vile, hateful things he claims you've said, but everyone who has had contact with you since your departure from the church knows you have said nothing ill-mannered, it may be easier for them to reach the same truth that you've discovered -- it's him, not you, that has the problem, and it's him, not you, they need to cut out of their lives.

If you can be strong that way, you may be doing some of them a great service.

Being civil does not mean being silent. By all means, speak out strongly and plainly about what has happened and why to any of your friends who will listen. But I believe they are more likely to want to listen, and to be able to hear, if nastiness is not part of your message.

 

[kittynh]

Remember too, there are other places of social interaction besides church. I belong to some artisan guilds, we are really supportive of our members during illness and all that. Plus, I do volunteer work, and that makes a lot of contacts for me. I must say it would be nice if there were a skeptic organization around, but I live too far in the boonies. That's why I like JREF it gives me a feeling of belonging, without the fear of being judged for my beliefs or lack thereof.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby: you have every right to be angry, and to express that anger. If this were a movie and there were a scene with you telling this person off in strong colorful language, I'd be mentally cheering right along with the rest of the audience.

However, this being real life, I think Hans' original advice still has a lot of merit. A reason to avoid being nasty to this person, if you can, is for the sake of the other people still in his clutches.
Being civil does not mean being silent. By all means, speak out strongly and plainly about what has happened and why to any of your friends who will listen. But I believe they are more likely to want to listen, and to be able to hear, if nastiness is not part of your message.

Thanks. Very good advice. I am not prone to nastiness, even if I secretly desire to be so when very angry. I have responded to the letter by the lay minister (I did not make it very clear, but he is not the Pastor of the church who preached all the nonsense), and have done so very firmly, but with tact. I have had no reply....and really hope to never hear from him again. He is one of the Pastor's "yes" men. He will pay no heed to what I say.