"Neda". Watched it. Not cool.

[ponderingturtle]

On the other hand, I have a feeling that the west is going to be blamed for it anyway.
And, frankly, I have to wonder what a deal on nukes or anything else would be worth with a government like that.

Are they really that much worse than say stalin's russia? They are less repressive after all.

 

[tyr_13]

I would love for these asshats to be buried deep for the rest of their lives. However, we can't really do anything but support the resistance with words. Even words too loud will injure the resistance though, so we have to hold back. It sucks, it sucks hard, but we need restraint right now.

I have no idea what this militia moron was thinking though. "Maybe if I shoot into the crowd it will help." Was that it? Did he shoot randomly? Did he aim at Neda? "I know, I'll shoot that strikingly beautiful young woman in the chest, that'll do it."

I wish the best to Iran, they have the power to change a hell of a lot in that region and the world. I guess I wish the best for the world.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Reality check: Mousavi and his supporters are not a movement for a secular democracy. They see themselves as the legitimate continuation of Khomeini's revolution. I'm certainly not defending Ahmadinejad, but it does look like he did indeed win the election. I see no democratic way of ousting him and installing Mousavi.

I have lots of sympathy for the protesters. I admire their focus and bravery. However, I don't think anyone there is advocating a secular democracy.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Reality check: Mousavi and his supporters are not a movement for a secular democracy. They see themselves as the legitimate continuation of Khomeini's revolution. I'm certainly not defending Ahmadinejad, but it does look like he did indeed win the election. I see no democratic way of ousting him and installing Mousavi.

I have lots of sympathy for the protesters. I admire their focus and bravery. However, I don't think anyone there is advocating a secular democracy.

Wrong. I know of some who are... they're just realistic enough to know that it cannot be done overnight, and that recent events are but a first step along that road. Don't forget that the theocrats messed up and pissed off a lot of people when Khamenei came out with his comments on Friday. He basically delivered a "divine decree" to people to shut up and go home - it didn't work, and thus the veneer of divine power of the mullahs was tarnished.

That's a step - however small - towards the eventual realization of a secular government.

Joe, when are you going to understand that, as of last Friday, this thing got much bigger than just Mousavi vs. Ahmadinejad? My Iranian friends seemed to grasp this almost immediately, but you just don't seem to get it.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The revolution in the late '70s started off with the students (some of whom may have wanted a truly secular democracy instead of the Shah). Eventually the clerics joined, and it quickly became a religious movement.

The clerics recently joined the anti-Ahmdinejad protests. Mousavi's connection to the Ayatollah Khomeini, the original Supreme Leader, goes way back. He was an early and fervent member of that revolution (you remember--"America the Great Satan" and all that?)

I shouldn't have said that nobody wants a secular democracy. But Mousavi certainly does not.

And. . sadly, I don't think Mousavi won the election. He's claiming he did, but it doesn't seem to be so.

ETA: While I think Mousavi is certainly the lesser evil, I don't see a "Free Iran" anytime soon.

 

[MattusMaximus]

ETA: While I think Mousavi is certainly the lesser evil, I don't see a "Free Iran" anytime soon.

Neither do I, but I do see the beginnings of a revolution. And, as the history of the United States attests, revolution takes time.

But, just like events such as the Boston Tea Party helped foment revolution here, I think the events of last week will help foment revolution in Iran.

And "Neda" will be on the lips of the revolutionaries. You can count on that.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Neither do I, but I do see the beginnings of a revolution. And, as the history of the United States attests, revolution takes time.

But, just like events such as the Boston Tea Party helped foment revolution here, I think the events of last week will help foment revolution in Iran.

And "Neda" will be on the lips of the revolutionaries. You can count on that.

Do you think this new revolution will have Mousavi as its leader?

I was just reading some commentary and a translation of the speech he gave Saturday. I sure don't see him leading the overthrow of the theocracy.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's a haunting video. Her eyes are rolling back in her head but it looks like they are open wide and looking at the camera. Lots of people die needlessly, violently, unjustly... there is a lot of tragedy in the world. This is no exception. But that video is utterly haunting. I won't be able to get that image out of my head for a long time. I probably should not have watched it.

 

[leftysergeant]

When she looked directly at the camera, it was because a friend was approaching, filming as he came.

I saw a version with German subtitles. The people around her are saying"Don't be afraid. Stay with us."

What is haunting about that is that the look on her face seemed to indicate that she knew it was over for her, and that she was ready to die. Her last expression seemed more one of sadness than of hatred or anger.

In a way, that makes the video all the more effective for the purpose of rallying the people around her cause.

 

[Beerina]

The movement is outgunned. I think it is over. The only hope was this high ranking group who could demand a recount or whatever.

Well, CNN sure got back to who's gonna guest star in Pink Panther III: The Continuing Rape of Peter Sellers by Steve Martin fast enough.



I wouldn't count it out yet, though. Liveleak was loaded with smuggled vids from yesterday.

Oooh. I don't wanna think about it. I just hope they put down the rebellion quickly so we can get back to wondering what Meghan Fox and Audrina Partridge are up to.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Do you think this new revolution will have Mousavi as its leader?

I don't know. At this stage, I don't think it really matters because it has started to take on a life of its own. Notice how quiet Mousavi has been lately, yet the protests continue.

I was just reading some commentary and a translation of the speech he gave Saturday. I sure don't see him leading the overthrow of the theocracy.

You're missing my point. It's bigger than Mousavi. Everybody else seems to get this now, why can't you?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Good op-ed about the current situation in Iran and where it is likely to go from here. I think Cohen is still in Iran, and he clearly outlines five reasons why this is just the beginning of a broader revolution in Iran.

 

[IDB87]

What is haunting about that is that the look on her face seemed to indicate that she knew it was over for her, and that she was ready to die. Her last expression seemed more one of sadness than of hatred or anger.

In a way, that makes the video all the more effective for the purpose of rallying the people around her cause.

Lefty, don't be so poetic. She didn't know what the heck hit her, or what was happening and it appears shock set in rather quickly.

 

[tyr_13]

It's a haunting video. Her eyes are rolling back in her head but it looks like they are open wide and looking at the camera. Lots of people die needlessly, violently, unjustly... there is a lot of tragedy in the world. This is no exception. But that video is utterly haunting. I won't be able to get that image out of my head for a long time. I probably should not have watched it.

I felt the same way seeing it on CNN. I just couldn't look away. People like to say that violent media desensitization makes the people of the US numb to violence, but I've not talked to a single person that's seen the video and doesn't look like they're ready to cry.

 

[Pardalis]

It's a haunting video. Her eyes are rolling back in her head but it looks like they are open wide and looking at the camera.

When she looked directly at the camera, it was because a friend was approaching, filming as he came.
[...]
What is haunting about that is that the look on her face seemed to indicate that she knew it was over for her, and that she was ready to die. Her last expression seemed more one of sadness than of hatred or anger.

I understand the feeling people have by trying to interpret her expression during the video, it's a human reflex to attribute feelings and intentions to inanimate objects, but it is more likely that she was unconscious or already dead during the whole sequence. No need to overthink the video.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Good op-ed about the current situation in Iran and where it is likely to go from here. I think Cohen is still in Iran, and he clearly outlines five reasons why this is just the beginning of a broader revolution in Iran.

My dentist is Persian. She is very smart and opinionated and admirable. She runs classes for college kids in the spare time who want to be dentists as well. She is very Persian but also very much different than the images of people I see coming out of Iran (you know, those masses that are waving their fists over their heads in unison whenever the Grand Jedi speaks).

Anyway, about a year ago she told me that she hates the way Iran treats women in her homeland and she said that a revolution was coming. At the time, I thought this was just a pipe dream of hers. I could not imagine it ever coming true.

Oh, and about my Jedi comment: don't you see it too? Just photoshop a light saber in one of their hands, it would look just like a friend of Obi Wan.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I don't know. At this stage, I don't think it really matters because it has started to take on a life of its own. Notice how quiet Mousavi has been lately, yet the protests continue.

Not really. Last I heard, he was still at the protests and giving speeches on a bullhorn and the crowds were still waving his photo.

ETA: From a news article posted 9 hours ago (though I don't know how long ago Mousavi's statement they're referring to was made): "Mousavi has vowed to continue protesting despite a government ban on demonstrations and a public warning from Khamenei." Reference.
This article from yesterday says (my bolding), "Meanwhile, officials announced plans to set up a special court and warned that anyone who encouraged more demonstrations, including opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi, will be subject to arrest."
The issue of whether the election was stolen is still central to what's going on in Iran. If the movement has moved on from that central issue, I don't think it has moved very far.

You're missing my point. It's bigger than Mousavi. Everybody else seems to get this now, why can't you?

But for Mousavi and the recent elections, none of these protests would be happening. If everyone thinks otherwise, they are wrong.

ETA: On the events in Iran, I think President Obama has taken the right position. Decry the murder of Neda and other repressive actions of the state, but do not endorse Mousavi or intervene or in any way make this about the U.S. And for now, wait and see how this all plays out.

 

[Pardalis]

The Iranian government is already attributing her murder to "terror groups"

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/24/iran.neda.death/index.html

but according to the evidence so far, it could be said that she was killed by mistake. The marksmen had mistaken her for the sister of one of the Monafeghin who had been executed in the province of Mazandaran some time ago.

I wonder what kind of evidence would lead them to think that. They have positive evidence of a mistake, which by definition is a non-event (a negative event), something that didn't happen?

I guess the other 30 deaths or so are also mistaken identities?

 

[tyr_13]

Wait, the marksman mistook her for a dead woman? Really, Iran, the zombie defense? Pull the other one.

Even if it was this other woman, why shoot her?

EDIT: "Oh, it's ok. We thought we were murdering this other woman..."

 

[Pardalis]

Wait, the marksman mistook her for a dead woman?

The brother is the one who died. The alleged plotters mistook Neda for the sister, but which raises the question how would the Iranian intelligence know about that?