Neda was shot by the CIA

[Blender Head]

Hey, he's just askin' questions! What's the harm in that?

 

[McHrozni]

That fact that the US has put a lot of money into destabilizing Iran with a view to bringing about regime change is hardly a state secret! That's what the US calls spreading democracy.

Lay your little straw man aside. There is a world of difference between putting money in attempting a regime change and paying off tens of thousands of men and women to demonstrate in the face of armed brutal police and militia.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

How does anyone know who shot her?

She was demonstrating against the government, facing heavily armed anti-riot police and paramilitaries, who were shooting at demonstrators in order to scare them away. There was a claim from Iranian officials that she was misidentified as a sister of a known anti-government rebel by the same militias. Can you make an educated guess as to who was the culprit? I assure you it doesn't take a PhD in clairvoyance to figure it out.

McHrozni

 

[Travis]

And the reason their going around killing the sisters of people they don't like is....? I really can't see how they expect this to make them look better.

This was my first thought as well.

 

[J. Wellington Wimpy]

She was demonstrating against the government, facing heavily armed anti-riot police and paramilitaries, who were shooting at demonstrators in order to scare them away. There was a claim from Iranian officials that she was misidentified as a sister of a known anti-government rebel by the same militias. Can you make an educated guess as to who was the culprit? I assure you it doesn't take a PhD in clairvoyance to figure it out.

McHrozni

The exchange in posts #2 & #3 is looking more prophetic all the time, huh...?

 

[MolBasser]

Yeah, pretty lame that the ambassador would say "shot in the head" when she was clearly shot in the chest by the video.

If your trying to convince someone, maybe you ought to at least stick to getting right what is not in dispute.

MolBasser

 

[CDRM]

I just don't understand why these conspiracy theoriests have more trust in the Iranian regime than they do of the US and other western nations. I even saw one guy posting those 1984-esque prisoner confession tapes ,where they blame western nations for influenceing them, as if that was proof that the US and other outside powers were behind this. Where does such a contrast in trust come from?

 

[dudalb]

I just don't understand why these conspiracy theoriests have more trust in the Iranian regime than they do of the US and other western nations. I even saw one guy posting those 1984-esque prisoner confession tapes ,where they blame western nations for influenceing them, as if that was proof that the US and other outside powers were behind this. Where does such a contrast in trust come from?

Because the Iranian Government is against "The Establishement","The New World Order" "THE MAN" or whatever else you want to call it.
The CTers will embrace anybody who is Anti Establishment.

 

[McHrozni]

I just don't understand why these conspiracy theoriests have more trust in the Iranian regime than they do of the US and other western nations. I even saw one guy posting those 1984-esque prisoner confession tapes ,where they blame western nations for influenceing them, as if that was proof that the US and other outside powers were behind this. Where does such a contrast in trust come from?

I am reminded of a certain Wikipedia article I browsed some time ago.
It's here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia_–_United_States_relations

It has a POV tag because the information comes from a US government web site. Come on, I'm quite sure we can trust Uncle Sam to get the names of his ambassadors right ...

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

CDRM:

I just don't understand why these conspiracy theoriests have more trust in the Iranian regime than they do of the US and other western nations. I even saw one guy posting those 1984-esque prisoner confession tapes ,where they blame western nations for influenceing them, as if that was proof that the US and other outside powers were behind this. Where does such a contrast in trust come from?

I have the same tendency myself - in moderation it's rooting for the underdog, or supporting the competition in a potential monopoly situation. Out of moderation, it's unmitigated stupid as you note.

McHrozni:

I actually know a few people who are convinced the CIA is paying the protesters to demonstrate, in order to destabilize the Iranian regime. What a waste of perfectly good oxygen..

OMG, that's insane!
In fact, "the West" has a long history of using a non-friendly nation's own citizenry against them - weaponized nonviolence you could call it. The recent fad began in 2000, Belgrade, and used since - successfully - in Georgia, Ukraine, Lebanon, off the top of my head and tried elsewhere with varying levels of success. Earlier it was in Asia - Rangoon 1988 (IIRC) was a massacre. We almost certainly helped set up the confrontation in China at Tinanmen Square. Governments do not take kindly to this, as is only natural.

That said, you can't "pay" people to brave state violence, it's more complex than that. [my thoughts] Also, IMO this thing in Iran seems more homegrown than the others. But then, it would have to...

Mikeeeean:

I was under the impression she had been shot in the chest, thats how it looked to me anyway. Sounds like they can't even stick with one version of the story, lame!

Indeed - a maroon with confused ideas of anatomy? Or guy who has no compunctions pulling stuff from his ass? Welcome to the forum.

This is a really pathetic move by this dude, claiming the bullet was some kind of rare American-CIA-"terrorist" invention. I don't know the details or bullets, will trust Joey Donuts there. It's true we can't prove someone didn't sneak in and deal the regime a black eye with a discrediting shot like this, but there were others, in their turf, under their noses, etc... Maybe the sniper subconsciously hates the gov. and tried to discredit it from within... like a coincidental unaware CIA proxy...

However, the silliness of this charge serves as a good parody of the charges from US and UK that Iran is supplying roadside bombs into Iraq based soley (AFAIK) on the "Iranian-style" of the bombs, as if that style can't be mimicked or independently used by anyone else. Wacky conspiracy theorists on all sides.

 

[JihadJane]

Lay your little straw man aside. There is a world of difference between putting money in attempting a regime change and paying off tens of thousands of men and women to demonstrate in the face of armed brutal police and militia.

McHrozni

Fair point but that doesn't mean that large amounts of money weren't put into stirring the pot, such as funding political groups.

She was demonstrating against the government, facing heavily armed anti-riot police and paramilitaries, who were shooting at demonstrators in order to scare them away. There was a claim from Iranian officials that she was misidentified as a sister of a known anti-government rebel by the same militias. Can you make an educated guess as to who was the culprit? I assure you it doesn't take a PhD in clairvoyance to figure it out.

McHrozni

Actually, I am often impressed by JREF debunkers' claims to clairvoyance, though I don't know how many have PhDs in the subject. They frequent chant "Evidence?" and yet are happy with eductated guesses when they support their preconceptions and political needs.

Just because something seems obvious does mean it's true.

The last attempted coup in Venezuela showed that coup organizers are more than willing to kill their own supporters for political capital.

 

[McHrozni]

CDRM:
McHrozni:

OMG, that's insane!
In fact, "the West" has a long history of using a non-friendly nation's own citizenry against them - weaponized nonviolence you could call it. The recent fad began in 2000, Belgrade, and used since - successfully - in Georgia, Ukraine, Lebanon, off the top of my head and tried elsewhere with varying levels of success. Earlier it was in Asia - Rangoon 1988 (IIRC) was a massacre. We almost certainly helped set up the confrontation in China at Tinanmen Square. Governments do not take kindly to this, as is only natural.

See post #22.

Furthermore, I would just love if someone came up with any evidence whatsoever of these allegations. Near as I can tell, the idea of this actually came from western conspiracy theorists, not even the supposedly targeted regimes. Do remember that the burden of proof is upon you.

McHrozni

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Just because something seems obvious does mean it's true.

You mean like a 140 ton jet airliner smashing into an office building at high subsonic speed having something to do with its collapse an hour later?

How obvious does something have to get before you stop blaming the jews and get a clue?

 

[JihadJane]

...the burden of proof is upon you.

Why?

 

[McHrozni]

Fair point but that doesn't mean that large amounts of money weren't put into stirring the pot, such as funding political groups.

It also doesn't mean they were.

I never said it is completely impossible that CIA wouldn't have some part in this. There is just no evidence it actually does, just allegations, and the assertion was far, far greater than this anyway.

Actually, I am often impressed by JREF debunkers' claims to clairvoyance, though I don't know how many have PhDs in the subject. They frequent chant "Evidence?" and yet are happy with eductated guesses when they support their preconceptions and political needs.

Considering I stated you don't need to be clairvoyant in order to figure it out it seem to me you just failed at reading comprehension again. All evidence that we have shows quite clearly that she was shot by Iranian militias. The only 'evidence' against that is a claim by Iranian ambassador to Mexico (?), who, in addition to being well removed from the events, also has direct interest in putting the blame away from the regime, and blaming the US for it.

The only sensible conclusion is that he was lying to cover for his regime.

Just because something seems obvious does mean it's true.

It also doesn't mean it isn't. There is exactly zero evidence to support the allegation CIA had anything to do with it, there is plentiful evidence to the contrary. Iran would have absolutely no reason to withhold any evidence CIA was involved, and it would have plentiful reason and means to withhold evidence it was their own militia. There is no reason to doubt what happened, Iranian regime is to blame for her death, end of story.

Note that if some significant evidence to the contrary surfaces, and it turns out to be true, I am prepared to change my opinion. Evidence against that is quite strong however, and I sincerely doubt any will surface anyway.

The last attempted coup in Venezuela showed that coup organizers are more than willing to kill their own supporters for political capital.

The current demonstrations in Iran show that the Iranian regime is more than willing to torture and kill their own people to subdue riots. Certainly this tells us far more about the possibilities of this current event than an alleged incident or two, even if true, that happened years ago, half a world away, in different cultural background and with completely different people involved.

I do consider it very amusing that you consider events that took place in Venezuela years ago more relevant to what happened in Iran last week more relevant in judging what happened in the very same Iran during the very same week, however

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Why?

Because you're making a rather outrageus claim, and because it is not possible to prove CIA (or someone else) didn't do something. Standard of proof in this case is if there is no evidence, it didn't happen, I believe?

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

See post #22.

This distinction is addressed by the link I provided above.

Furthermore, I would just love if someone came up with any evidence whatsoever of these allegations. Near as I can tell, the idea of this actually came from western conspiracy theorists, not even the supposedly targeted regimes. Do remember that the burden of proof is upon you.

McHrozni

"Supposedly targeted regimes"? Ahem...
http://guerillas-without-guns.blogspot.com/2007/02/table-of-contents-masterlist.html
Proof, perhaps not - evidence, absolutely. It's in there under the headings. The US planners proudly claim at least the Serbia campaign (see the documentary and book "A Force More Powerful"). The later episodes, infringing deeper into Russia's sphere were more ambiguous for US/Western involvement. I'm not as familiar with the Middle Eastern episodes - meant to examine the Lebanon Cedar Revolution situation, got sidetracked, but it's interesting how the tactic was not used in Iraq. It's just one device in the toolbox of world-making.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

BTW, JihadJane, your friends in Iran have been setting up the jews (among others) to take the blame for the current unrest well before their bogus election as you can see in this Iranian propaganda video from last year detailing a jewish/American plot to undermine the Iranian regime:

 

[McHrozni]

This distinction is addressed by the link I provided above.

Which link? Repost it, please.

"Supposedly targeted regimes"? Ahem...
http://guerillas-without-guns.blogspot.com/2007/02/table-of-contents-masterlist.html
Proof, perhaps not - evidence, absolutely. It's in there under the headings. The US planners proudly claim at least the Serbia campaign (see the documentary and book "A Force More Powerful"). The later episodes, infringing deeper into Russia's sphere were more ambiguous for US/Western involvement. I'm not as familiar with the Middle Eastern episodes - meant to examine the Lebanon Cedar Revolution situation, got sidetracked, but it's interesting how the tactic was not used in Iraq. It's just one device in the toolbox of world-making.

Hm. The entire segment of "evidence" I could find on your "done deal" involvement in Yugoslavia was an allegation of Yugoslav authorities that the resistance was created by the US, during the clampdown on the very resistance:

So the fight moved to a different level; the government issued a statement blaming all unrest on the cross-pressure from NATO-controlled information warfare and the activities of “an internal fifth column.” [14] Milosevic ran a series of ads targeting Otpor as “NATO foot soldiers” and tools of foreign powers; the spots cleverly had the trademark Otpor fist clenched around a wad of American dollars. [15] The public at the time dismissed the campaign as a cynical lie from a desperate ruler, solidifying in their minds that indeed “Gotov Je.”

I also bolded another part which you evidently missed.

If this is "thorough" research and "done deal", then all evidence clearly shows I'm quite correct in stating there was no significant CIA involvement in any of your alleged unrests, including the one in Iran.

McHrozni

 

[JihadJane]

I do consider it very amusing that you consider events that took place in Venezuela years ago more relevant to what happened in Iran last week more relevant in judging what happened in the very same Iran during the very same week, however

McHrozni

I used the Venezulan example as an illustration that knee-jerk, black and white, Good Guys/Bad Guys thinking isn't compatible with skepticism.

Taking control of Iran is the the big ME prize for the US in its project to dominate the region.

Because you're making a rather outrageus claim, and because it is not possible to prove CIA (or someone else) didn't do something. Standard of proof in this case is if there is no evidence, it didn't happen, I believe?

McHrozni

Which claim of mine is outrageous? Agents of the US state (and many other states) have been interfering in the internal politics of other countries for decades, often violently and covertly. It is simply your opinion that says that such a claim is outrageous.

All you have is speculation, as far as I can see, though it isn't, of course, unreasonable speculation. Neither is it unreasonable to speculate about other possible culprits.