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Neat optical illusion

I have been out of the forum for a while... but this is outrageous. Difficult to understand????? in which world? His thinking is transparent, and very obvious. Of course I would not take this out of context, but reading your last posts seems that you agree with him?? so... there are immaterial souls that survive the body?

Please tell me that you just find the interpretations (Ian btw just reads them and believe in them because they appear to let his souls survive, but such interpretations are not product of his mind) appealing, and that you dont buy all his paraphernalia.
BDZ, I do not dismiss what Ian says about science and perception simply because I disagree with him about survival of consciousness.

In my opinion, Ian is quite wrong about some things. In my opinion, many people (perhaps including yourself) dismiss what he says simply because it is Ian saying it, and not on the merits of what he says. There have been several threads here where Ian has said something perfectly defendable, following which he was bombarded by people who wished to practice "illogic by association".

Ian says X. X is quite clearly wrong. People go nuts pointing this out.
Ian says Y. Y is independent of X. People go nuts complaining about X.
Ian gets mad at people complaining about X when he said Y. People go nuts complaining about Ian getting mad.

I am speaking of the Y topics here. It matters not a whit to me whether the X topics comprise 10% or 90% of what Ian says.

It makes life much easier to pretend that all Ian posts are X. It allows us to dismiss him without effort or thought. In truth, though, some Ian posts are Y, and are worthwhile.

In passing, I also find it helps to try not to engage in speculation about Ian's motivation. You say you have already decided why he posts X and Y, and what he believes. Be careful; such attributions allow you to see Y as X. When you complain about an Ian you have defined for yourself, you shouldn't be surprised when A) he acts like you expect him to, while B) claiming he is not.
 
Merc said:
This chart has them labeled L, M, and S (for long, medium, and short), but even that is misleading, considering the overlap--especially between the L and M pigments.
Thanks for that chart, Merc. I did not realize there is so much overlap in sensitivity.

~~ Paul
 
Merc said:
Ian says X. X is quite clearly wrong. People go nuts pointing this out.
Ian says Y. Y is independent of X. People go nuts complaining about X.
Ian gets mad at people complaining about X when he said Y. People go nuts complaining about Ian getting mad.
Part of the problem, just as one would expect, is that Ian also does this. He's pounding strawmen materialisms all the time.

We spend a lot of time comparing incomplete -isms here. People put forth half-baked proposals for idealism, materialism, neutral monism, etc. that do not explain everything we see in the world. Then we argue which proposal is better. Sometimes we even invoke Occam. But the proposals do not explain everything, so there is really no point in comparing them. Some examples:

idealism: Why does the world appear consistent to all minds (and how would you test your conjecture)?

neutral monism: What is this 1 + -1 = 0 thing, anyway (and how would you test the math)?

materialism: (okay, I'm working hard here ... come on ...) How can the feeling of subjective experience arise from brain processes?

I suggest that when all the details are worked out, these -isms will be identical. After all, they are explaining the same world.

~~ Paul
 
BDZ, I do not dismiss what Ian says about science and perception simply because I disagree with him about survival of consciousness.

In my opinion, Ian is quite wrong about some things. In my opinion, many people (perhaps including yourself) dismiss what he says simply because it is Ian saying it, and not on the merits of what he says. There have been several threads here where Ian has said something perfectly defendable, following which he was bombarded by people who wished to practice "illogic by association".

Ian says X. X is quite clearly wrong. People go nuts pointing this out.
Ian says Y. Y is independent of X. People go nuts complaining about X.
Ian gets mad at people complaining about X when he said Y. People go nuts complaining about Ian getting mad.

I am speaking of the Y topics here. It matters not a whit to me whether the X topics comprise 10% or 90% of what Ian says.

It makes life much easier to pretend that all Ian posts are X. It allows us to dismiss him without effort or thought. In truth, though, some Ian posts are Y, and are worthwhile.

In passing, I also find it helps to try not to engage in speculation about Ian's motivation. You say you have already decided why he posts X and Y, and what he believes. Be careful; such attributions allow you to see Y as X. When you complain about an Ian you have defined for yourself, you shouldn't be surprised when A) he acts like you expect him to, while B) claiming he is not.

Ian brings this on himself. I can't take anything he says seriously because of his arguments where he makes completely ridiculous claims, refuses to support them, and then calls whoever doesn't just take his word for it "stupid skeptics". I don't have the time or the desire to dig through all the horsecrap to find the gem. Is this a case of poisoning the well? Sure, but it's Ian who poisoned it. Act like an ass and you'll get treated like an ass, even if you happen to be right.
 
Color Debate

Color Vision researchers (I count at least 3 among my friends) absolutely loathe it when people refer to the cones as "red, green, and blue".

Thanks for being generally complimentary and correcting me on a fine point. What if I defined the red cone as the cone type which, when stimulated alone while the other two types are not stimulated, produce the sensation of light primary red? Would that be accurate even though momentarily neglecting the overlap and the exact graph of sensitivity of the "L" cone's pigment? Ditto for the other two.

The overlap is of course essential to seeing the full rainbow of colors. Otherwise, a pure yellow light would look black if it fell between non-overlapping long and medium receptors.

Oh...and it is not our "minds" which create the illusion of color. But that debate will have to wait...

Minds -- brains -- a semantic disagreement? When you close your eyes and press them with your fingers and see bright colors, what object is emitting or reflecting those colors? Or if we dream in color, what wavelengths of light are reaching our eyes? The sensation of color is created by the brain. The physics of color is just about wavelengths of light which may or may not correlate to perception, as the castle illusion amply demonstrates.

One more -- what color is my car if illuminated at night by sodium vapor street lamps and it looks white even though it is red in the daylight -- so different in appearance that I can't recognize my own car? Is that white color in the physical world? Or only in my mind?
 
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Adapting to Color Blindness

Normal sighted people are always surprised that the "Normal" and "Deutan" views are virtually identical to me, except perhaps for some shifts in contrast.

I had a friend who was red/green color blind and I was able to study his affliction until it made him too upset. He had a number of delusions which may have been hallucinations he'd developed to adapt to living with full-sighted people:

1) If he saw a red or green object with no context to give him clues, like a red neon light, he described it as a "nondescript color." I'd never call any color "nondescript," but that was the word he used to describe red or green out of context.

2) He could see in a color photograph that a red flower was against green leaves, but if I cut a hole in a card and showed him only a leaf part or only a flower part, he couldn't tell which was which. The "redness" he perceived in the flower and the "greenness" he perceived (hallucinated) in the leaves vanished. This was the test that really injured his ego.

3) He believed he could see colors on black and white television. He might say "wow, what a bright red dress she is wearing" and full sighted people say, "What? Huh?" He couldn't understand why others couldn't see the colors he thought he could see in B&W pictures.

I was asked if, when he thought someone was wearing a red dress on B&W television, the dress really was red and he had perceptive skills above and beyond us with normal vision. A woo hypothesis.
 
Castle Illusion Invisible to Wife of Dogdoctor

The illusion works well for me but not at all for my wife for some reason.

She undoubtedly doesn't have enough eyeball control to keep her focus stationary for long. Can she see the hidden pictures in stereograms?
 
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It's nice to see those splatter images (the ones that normally test for colour-blindness) in single-channel colour, just so I can see what it is that others are seeing. I still can't pick it out once I go back to full colour, but I guess that's kind of the point.

Cheers,
Rat.

That was what i really enjoyed about that link too. Nice to know I'm not the only one.

/Hans
 
some Ian posts are Y, and are worthwhile.

Well, of course. But this is not the point, you react against those who trash everything Ian says just because he is the one saying it, but at the same time it appears that you believe his thinking is correct. It is not. If he utters some coherent things its because he has read some arguments and hand picked them when they appear to support his claims.

And his claims are simply wrong, and are illogical.

So, if he uses certain argument to support them, one cannot see the argument as an isolated event, its part of his thinking, and because of that, even if the argument is not wrong per se, is still wrongly used.

I hope you can see my point. It is not my interest to "bash Ian" but to correctly see his arguments in context of his thinking.
 
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We spend a lot of time comparing incomplete -isms here. People put forth half-baked proposals for idealism, materialism, neutral monism, etc. that do not explain everything we see in the world. Then we argue which proposal is better. Sometimes we even invoke Occam. But the proposals do not explain everything, so there is really no point in comparing them.

Cant agree more. Most of the discussions in here are absurd in that sense. Still, they are fun, and one can learn from them. Those are the only reasons we have (I think) to participate. We are not solving anything.
 
Well, of course. But this is not the point, you react against those who trash everything Ian says just because he is the one saying it, but at the same time it appears that you believe his thinking is correct. It is not. If he utters some coherent things its because he has read some arguments and hand picked them when they appear to support his claims.
Um...I have argued against Ian at length about some things. I don't know how you can think that I accept everything he says. Within my first week here, Ian called something I said ... a name I can't repeat.

I do not agree with you that he only believes the things he does in order to justify this one uber-belief. (And you know, from reading my arguments against Iacchus, that I am not opposed to saying that this is the case when I believe that it is.)
 
I see. One thing is true, and I have to recon it. You are capable of separating the person from his arguments. Well done. I think I do get carried away with the person sometimes, specially when they start to talk with their guts and not their brains.

Kudos for that!
 
Thanks for being generally complimentary and correcting me on a fine point. What if I defined the red cone as the cone type which, when stimulated alone while the other two types are not stimulated, produce the sensation of light primary red? Would that be accurate even though momentarily neglecting the overlap and the exact graph of sensitivity of the "L" cone's pigment? Ditto for the other two.
Well...I'd probably politely suggest you should have stopped while you were ahead. It doesn't work that way. Hurvich & Jameson found the connection between the trichromatic signals at the retinal layer and the opponent processing signals, as illustrated here. It is a combination of excitatory and inhibitory signalling from the cones that gives rise to a system that initially seemed wholly incompatible with trichromacy (seriously, red-green, yellow-blue, and black-white opponent process systems, coming from 3 overlapping pigments?)

As for the "cone type that produces a primary red", note that red is an interesting case, seeing as there is "redness" on both ends of the spectrum, on the violet end as well as the red end. Unless I am mistaken (quite possible, actually), there actually is no single wavelength that is perceived as "unique red" (red without any blue or yellow in it), and we must mix wavelengths in order to produce a "pure" red. (In contrast, there are single wavelengths for unique yellow, green, and blue.)
The overlap is of course essential to seeing the full rainbow of colors. Otherwise, a pure yellow light would look black if it fell between non-overlapping long and medium receptors.
More complex, again. If we only had 2 photopigments, we would be able to match any perceived color with only two lights (at appropriate intensities), and any place where the ratios were about the same (vast areas under our overlapping pigments) would be impossible to discriminate among. As is, our trichromatic vision can be fooled, as your computer or televisions demonstrate quite well, with only three lights. (There is some evidence of quadrachromats, for whom televisions and computer monitors do not look like accurate pictures of the real world.)
Minds -- brains -- a semantic disagreement? When you close your eyes and press them with your fingers and see bright colors, what object is emitting or reflecting those colors? Or if we dream in color, what wavelengths of light are reaching our eyes? The sensation of color is created by the brain. The physics of color is just about wavelengths of light which may or may not correlate to perception, as the castle illusion amply demonstrates.
The doctrine of Specific Nerve Energies (Muller) recognizes that stimulation of any sort of a visual nerve will result in visual sensation; any auditory nerve stimulation in auditory sensation, etc. It matters not what the stimulation is--light, pressure, whatever. When the visual cortex is stimulated (whether by light in the retina, or through brainstem activity, or through classical conditioning), what would you expect it to do besides "see"? When we dream, there is no wavelength reaching our retina; no explanation of vision would suggest it, so it is no surprise and no argument against any physical interpretation.
One more -- what color is my car if illuminated at night by sodium vapor street lamps and it looks white even though it is red in the daylight -- so different in appearance that I can't recognize my own car? Is that white color in the physical world? Or only in my mind?
Color constancy is among the topics vision researchers have studied for decades. Receptive fields (with excitatory/inhibitory center/surround fields) are part of the explanation, but not the whole. My favorite (partial) explanation is simply that what we think happens does not happen; that is, our visual perception is nowhere near as accurate or as sensitive (or as constant) as we believe it is. "Change blindness" experiments are a stunning demonstration of this.
 
Who's ian?

My Beever's more impressive.

9184498603321b4e.jpg
 
The doctrine of Specific Nerve Energies (Muller) recognizes that stimulation of any sort of a visual nerve will result in visual sensation; any auditory nerve stimulation in auditory sensation, etc. It matters not what the stimulation is--light, pressure, whatever...

... My favorite (partial) explanation is simply that what we think happens does not happen; that is, our visual perception is nowhere near as accurate or as sensitive (or as constant) as we believe it is. "Change blindness" experiments are a stunning demonstration of this.

To me its even more interesting to realize that sometimes, even when the cognition happens, the individual doesn't experience anything. "Innatentional Blindness" by Mack & Rock depict such instances.
 
To me its even more interesting to realize that sometimes, even when the cognition happens, the individual doesn't experience anything. "Innatentional Blindness" by Mack & Rock depict such instances.

I think there is a similar effect that relates to the hearing on the part of teenagers ;)
 
To me its even more interesting to realize that sometimes, even when the cognition happens, the individual doesn't experience anything. "Innatentional Blindness" by Mack & Rock depict such instances.
Define "even when the cognition happens" and "experience". Separately. Tell me how you know the first occurred but the second did not.

Nah, it's not you...it's "cognition". There's a reason behaviorists don't use the term.
 
Well...I'd probably politely suggest you should have stopped while you were ahead.

I'll politely point out that was an obnoxious remark for a moderator to make.

My description was sufficiently simplified to explain the principle of the castle illusion to newcomers to color theory.

Hurvich & Jameson found the connection between the trichromatic signals at the retinal layer and the opponent processing signals, as illustrated here. It is a combination of excitatory and inhibitory signalling from the cones that gives rise to a system that initially seemed wholly incompatible with trichromacy (seriously, red-green, yellow-blue, and black-white opponent process systems, coming from 3 overlapping pigments?)

Yes, I know all about that, but it's irrelevant to the castle illusion. Most people don't even understand the additive color system, so it wasn't a good idea to burden them with such irrelevancies.

Now that this debate has become more about egos than about vision and optical illusions, I'm bailing.
 

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