Merged Near Death Experience Study

[MaartenVergu]

Ok, let's go scientific again:

Brain activity (and EEG trace) persists uop to 11 minutes after cardiac arrest.

NEUROPHYSIOLOGY DURING CARDIAC ARREST

Through many studies in both human and animal models, cerebral function has
been shown to be severely compromised during cardiac arrest, with sudden loss
of consciousness and of all body reflexes, but also with the abolition of brain-stem
activity with the loss of the gag reflex and of the corneal reflex, and fixed and dilated
pupils are clinical findings in those patients (Parnia and Fenwick, 2002). And also
the function of the respiratory center, located close to the brainstem, fails, resulting
in apnoea. Complete cessation of cerebral circulation is found in induced cardiac
arrest due to ventricular fibrillation (VF) during threshold testing at implantation
of internal defibrillators. This complete cerebral ischemic model can be used to
study the result of anoxia of the brain. The middle cerebral artery blood flow, Vmca,
which is a reliable trend monitor of the cerebral blood flow, decreases to 0 cm/sec
immediately after the induction of VF (Gopalan et al., 1999). Electrical activity in
both cerebral cortex and the deeper structures of the brain has been shown to be
absent after a very short period of time. Monitoring of the electrical activity of the
cortex (EEG) has shown that the first ischemic changes in the EEG are detected an
average of 6.5 seconds from the onset of circulatory arrest, and with prolongation
of the cerebral ischemia always progression to isoelectricity occurs within 10 to
20 (mean 15) seconds (De Vries et al., 1998; Clute and Levy, 1990; Losasso
et al., 1992; Parnia and Fenwick, 2002). After defibrillation the Vmca, measured by
transcranial Doppler technique, returns rapidly within 1–5 seconds after a cardiac
arrest of short duration (Gopalan et al., 1999). However, in the case of a prolonged
cardiac arrest of more than 37 seconds, normal EEG activity may not return for
many minutes to hours after cardiac function has been restored, depending on the
duration of the cardiac arrest, despite maintenance of adequate blood pressure in
the recovery phase (Smith et al., 1990). Additionally, EEG recovery sometimes
underestimates the metabolic recovery of the brain, and cerebral oxygen uptake
may be depressed for a considerable time after restoration of circulation (De Vries
et al., 1998).

Source and scientific references: Van Lommel, P. (2006).
Near-Death Experience, Consciousness and the Brain

 

[steenkh]

I would be imterested to know if those who believe that there must be 'something' beond death and who cannot discard such a beliefcould say what advantage such a belief is to them in life. Do I presume correctly that it gives a soft focus to death, enabling them to avoid considering it and its inevitability?

Perhaps they are more willing to throw their life away because they think that they will just get another one, possibly better?

 

[steenkh]

Ok, let's go scientific again:
NEUROPHYSIOLOGY DURING CARDIAC ARREST

Interesting, but as long as nobody can show that NDEs are formed during the cardiac arrest (as opposed to before or after), it is not that important.

Why do you never give your view on the likelihood that NDEs are formed sometime after the cardiac arrest, much normal dreams are formed in short bursts, and not during the whole night, even if they feel like they take a long time?

 

[Belz...]

I will never be convinced that we go into nothingness after death.

Why not ? Have you even asked yourself the question so far ? Sometimes, understanding the underlying reasons for your beliefs allows you to question them and come up with better answers (or right back to the old one).

Understand: If it's about fear of death or an inability to imagine cessation of existence, I'm right here with you. I'm terrified of death, and I'd jump at any opportunity or belief that would soothe that fear... if only there were evidence for it. And that's the problem for me: despite my feelings on the matter, I'm just not built in a way that allows me to believe in things that just don't seem impossible.

The first step towards reason is self-doubt.

 

[Belz...]

Ok, let's go scientific again:

You are contradicting yourself. You said yesterday that science couldn't do what you're trying to do with it. Make up your mind.

And second, as others have pointed out, you need to be able to show that those experiences occured while the patient was dead, and expand your study to ensure you don't cherry-pick the cases that agree with your preconceptions.

 

[steenkh]

I'm terrified of death, and I'd jump at any opportunity or belief that would soothe that fear... if only there were evidence for it.

Same here. There is nothing I would like more than there to be a life after death, preferably together with my loved ones. But just like I do not believe that somebody is going to give me a billion dollars for fun, I cannot believe in a beautiful dream for which there is no credible evidence.

Bring the evidence and make me happy!

 

[Belz...]

Same here. There is nothing I would like more than there to be a life after death, preferably together with my loved ones. But just like I do not believe that somebody is going to give me a billion dollars for fun, I cannot believe in a beautiful dream for which there is no credible evidence.

Bring the evidence and make me happy!

The problem we often see is that people make conclusions based on their emotions, full stop. It's comfortable, convenient or pleasant to them, so they believe it. I just don't get that. I'm not like that.

For instance, if they're afraid of elevators, they think the fear means that the elevator is dangerous. I'm afraid of heights, but I know it's not dangerous, so I can actually go there if I need to because, despite the crippling fear, I know it's ok. Make no mistake: the fear is still there.

 

[MaartenVergu]

I can't answer all of your questions, but here is more about the EEG during cardiac arrest:

"How do we know for sure that the EEG is flat in those patients with cardiac arrest, and how can we study this? In normal circumstances no attempts are made to register an EEG during cardiac arrest, because this takes far too much time, and patients need to be successfully resuscitated and defibrillated as soon as possible. But there have been some cases in which the electrical activity of the brain was measured (EEG) during a cardiac arrest, for example during surgery. Following the cardiac arrest (‘no-flow’), the EEG flat-lined after an average of fifteen seconds and remained flat despite external resuscitation (‘low flow’) (Hossmann et al., 1973, Moss et al., 1980, Clute et al., 1990, Losasso et al., 1992). A persistent flat-line EEG during external CPR has also been shown in animal studies (Bircher et al., 1980).

Monitoring of the electrical activity of the cortex (EEG) has shown that the first ischemic changes during induced cardiac arrest in humans are detected an average of 6.5 seconds after circulatory arrest. Ischemic changes in the EEG show a decrease of power in fast activity and in delta activity and an increase of slow delta I activity, sometimes also an increase in amplitude of theta activity, progressively and ultimately declining to iso-electricity. But more often initial slowing and attenuation of the EEG waves is the first sign of cerebral ischemia. With prolongation of the cerebral ischemia, progression to a flat-line EEG always occurs within 10 to 20 (mean 15) seconds from the onset of cardiac arrest (De Vries et al.1998, Clute at al., 1990, Losasso et al. 1992, Parnia and Fenwick 2002), and the EEG remains flat during the cardiac arrest until cardiac output has been restored by defibrillation (Fisher et al. 1996, Marshall et al 2001).

In tests on animals auditory evoked potentials, or measures of brain-stem viability, can no longer be induced, which means that the reaction caused in a normal functioning brain-stem by sound stimulation is no longer produced (Brantson et al, 1984, Gua et al, 1995)."

-------------
So far Van Lommel.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Read a few hundred NDEs and see if it doesn't affect your philosophy. Why is everyone having the same constructed hallucination again, and again? Even if it was PROVEN to be "in the brain", it would be the same message, and would be evidence in my opinion that our brains and the universe is trying to tell us something by constructing the same message repeatedly.

If NDEs had characteristics of a normal hallucination, I wouldn't care about them. It's the same way I don't care about people's DMT trips that much. If NDEs involved meeting Santa Claus on the moon and playing scrabble with a werewolf, as dreams / hallucinations / weird trips seem to do, then it would be silly to take them seriously.
Instead, NDEs are constructed as literally being trips into the afterlife.

 

[Belz...]

I can't answer all of your questions

And thus you answer none of them ?

Following the cardiac arrest (‘no-flow’), the EEG flat-lined after an average of fifteen seconds and remained flat despite external resuscitation (‘low flow’) (Hossmann et al., 1973, Moss et al., 1980, Clute et al., 1990, Losasso et al., 1992). A persistent flat-line EEG during external CPR has also been shown in animal studies (Bircher et al., 1980).

Yeah, so ? How does that tell us when the NDE occured ?

 

[Belz...]

Read a few hundred NDEs and see if it doesn't affect your philosophy.

It's not about philosophy. The plural of "anecdote" isn't "evidence". If every single anecdote you bring is suspect or unhelpful, their number isn't going to make a difference. This is one of several things that you fail to understand.

Why is everyone having the same constructed hallucination again, and again?

You're lying again. The experiences are NOT the same. This has been demonstrated even by you in this very thread.

Even if it was PROVEN to be "in the brain", it would be the same message, and would be evidence in my opinion that our brains and the universe is trying to tell us something by constructing the same message repeatedly.

You are continuing to beg the question by assuming things as part of your hypothesis.

If NDEs had characteristics of a normal hallucination, I wouldn't care about them.

We know that's not true because they have every characteristic of an oxygen-deprivation-induced hallucination.

If NDEs involved meeting Santa Claus on the moon and playing scrabble with a werewolf, as dreams / hallucinations / weird trips seem to do, then it would be silly to take them seriously.

Really ? Why would them involving gods and dead loved ones and afterlives be any more believable ? I suspect it is because you already believe in the afterlife, but not in Santa Claus.

Instead, NDEs are constructed as literally being trips into the afterlife.

They are nowhere near that detailed. Be careful: the human mind has this annoying ability to alter its own memories and add details as it recollects the events. That's why testimony is so unreliable, particularily during or following a traumatic experience like a brush with death.

 

[Akhenaten]

Read a few hundred NDEs and see if it doesn't affect your philosophy. Why is everyone having the same constructed hallucination again, and again? Even if it was PROVEN to be "in the brain", it would be the same message, and would be evidence in my opinion that our brains and the universe is trying to tell us something by constructing the same message repeatedly.

How do millions upon millions of people know what dragons look like? And Santa Claus? Jesus? "Grey" aliens?

If NDEs had characteristics of a normal hallucination, I wouldn't care about them. It's the same way I don't care about people's DMT trips that much. If NDEs involved meeting Santa Claus on the moon and playing scrabble with a werewolf, as dreams / hallucinations / weird trips seem to do, then it would be silly to take them seriously.

Why? What's the difference?

Instead, NDEs are constructed as literally being trips into the afterlife.

Yeah, that's much more sensible.

 

[Donn]

Read a few hundred NDEs and see if it doesn't affect your philosophy. Why is everyone having the same constructed hallucination again, and again?

They're not but, so far, it seems like you are.

Even if it was PROVEN to be "in the brain", it would be the same message, and would be evidence in my opinion that our brains and the universe is trying to tell us something by constructing the same message repeatedly.

It's not the same message repeatedly. Your posts are, OTOH.

If the universe has something to tell us, it can write an email.

If NDEs had characteristics of a normal hallucination, I wouldn't care about them.

Nah, you're telling a wee fib. You care because of death and the fields of puppies you await. Motivated thinking from a goal backwards.

It's the same way I don't care about people's DMT trips that much. If NDEs involved meeting Santa Claus on the moon and playing scrabble with a werewolf, as dreams / hallucinations / weird trips seem to do, then it would be silly to take them seriously.

You get to dismiss anything that is outside your motivated goal. See how that works?

Instead, NDEs are constructed as literally being trips into the afterlife.

Yes, when you construct them that way.

 

[steenkh]

Read a few hundred NDEs and see if it doesn't affect your philosophy. Why is everyone having the same constructed hallucination again, and again?

They don't. They see light, or they see darkness. Some see a tunnel, some see angels, others again see their relatives. Much like when people dream, in fact.

But still, some have similar hallucinations, and you ask why. Has it not occurred to you that they all have been near death? That similar stimulations of the brain result in similar hallucinations does not strike me as something that should affect my philosophy. Why should it affect yours? (It probably does not, because you already thought that NDEs represented something real, and you seek material that confirms it, while you ignore evidence that dismisses your philosophy).

Even if it was PROVEN to be "in the brain", it would be the same message, and would be evidence in my opinion that our brains and the universe is trying to tell us something by constructing the same message repeatedly.

Dreams are not evidence of anything, and the universe is not trying to tell you anything. If the universe was able to tell you something, it could do a lot better than giving people who wake up after being close to death wildly different dreams.

If NDEs had characteristics of a normal hallucination, I wouldn't care about them. It's the same way I don't care about people's DMT trips that much. If NDEs involved meeting Santa Claus on the moon and playing scrabble with a werewolf, as dreams / hallucinations / weird trips seem to do, then it would be silly to take them seriously.
Instead, NDEs are constructed as literally being trips into the afterlife.

And you think you can trust this material in reporting dreams that are obvious hallucinations? If somebody wakes up after having had a cardiac arrest and says that he dreamt he had helped Santa Claus bringing out presents, do you really think that the nurses quickly grap for their notebooks or microphones to report such an important dream?

 

[SusanB-M1]

...and would be evidence in my opinion that our brains and the universe is trying to tell us something by constructing the same message repeatedly.

Why should the universe wish to 'send a message' to one little dot in some remote galaxy? How can it choose to do such a thing? Do you consider that the universe has a thinking mind? Of what is it composed? Who made it? Do you believe it evolved as living creatures on earth have evolved? If so, what did it evolve from? If it is so clever, why does it have to send so many repetitions?!!
These are the sort of questions that I think of while reading your various claims.

 

[dlorde]

'Messages from the great beyond' is magical thinking.

EEGs measure electrical activity on the scalp. The weak electrical signals of brain activity barely passes through meninges, skull, periosteum, and skin at the best of times.

NDEs are strongly cultural in detail, with common gross characteristics. Most people will jump at a sudden loud noise, then make a culturally dependent expression of shock or surprise. If the latter isn't surprising, why should the former be?

The AWARE Study was intended to report preliminary results a couple of years ago; if they've found anything interesting, why have they kept postponing release? so the project leader can sell more speculative books on OBEs ?

 

[MaartenVergu]

So we can conclude that no one here can explain how it is possible that people have an enhanced consciousness while there is no electric activity in the brain. That's all we need to know.

And about the paterns in NDE's all over the world(again):


The traits of a classic NDE are as follows:

The notice of unpleasant sound or noise (claimed by R. Moody).
A sense/awareness of being dead.
A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A sense of removal from the world.
An out-of-body experience. A perception of one's body from an outside position. Sometimes observing doctors and nurses performing medical resuscitation efforts.
A "tunnel experience". A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.
A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light. Communication with the light.
An intense feeling of unconditional love and acceptance.
Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or similar. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved ones.
Receiving a life review, commonly referred to as "seeing one's life flash before one's eyes".
Receiving knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.
Approaching a border,[20] or a decision by oneself or others to return to one's body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.
Connection to the cultural beliefs held by the individual, which seem to dictate the phenomena experienced in the NDE and the later interpretation thereof.


Kenneth Ring (1980) subdivided the NDE on a five-stage continuum. The subdivisions were:
Peace
Body separation
Entering darkness
Seeing the light
Entering the light

(source Wikipedia)

Most of the NDE's have the same characteristics. Some of them are different.
But you can see patterns.

 

[tsig]

So we can conclude that no one here can explain how it is possible that people have an enhanced consciousness while there is no electric activity in the brain. That's all we need to know.

And about the paterns in NDE's all over the world(again):


The traits of a classic NDE are as follows:

The notice of unpleasant sound or noise (claimed by R. Moody).
A sense/awareness of being dead.
A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A sense of removal from the world.
An out-of-body experience. A perception of one's body from an outside position. Sometimes observing doctors and nurses performing medical resuscitation efforts.
A "tunnel experience". A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.
A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light. Communication with the light.
An intense feeling of unconditional love and acceptance.
Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or similar. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved ones.
Receiving a life review, commonly referred to as "seeing one's life flash before one's eyes".
Receiving knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.
Approaching a border,[20] or a decision by oneself or others to return to one's body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.
Connection to the cultural beliefs held by the individual, which seem to dictate the phenomena experienced in the NDE and the later interpretation thereof.


Kenneth Ring (1980) subdivided the NDE on a five-stage continuum. The subdivisions were:
Peace
Body separation
Entering darkness
Seeing the light
Entering the light

(source Wikipedia)

Most of the NDE's have the same characteristics. Some of them are different.
But you can see patterns.

The traits of a classic DE are as follows:

You do not come back and tell the tale.

Your body begins to decompose.

You are buried.

 

[MaartenVergu]

What is important that often veridical perceptions during NDE/OBE do occur later than the first 30 seconds after cardiac arrest, like the case of the denture man in the study, as in many other corroborated cases of veridical perceptions during NDE/OBE.

 

[Akhenaten]

So we can conclude that no one here can explain how it is possible that people have an enhanced consciousness while there is no electric activity in the brain. That's all we need to know.

Nobody can explain it because it doesn't bloody happen. No electrical activity in the brain is a DE, not a NDE.

And about the paterns in NDE's all over the world(again):

<snip>

Yes, it's getting very spammy.

Most of the NDE's have the same characteristics. Some of them are different.
But you can see patterns.

Most of the ones you've used as examples have the same characteristics but in any case, so what? There's no real reason to be surprised that people undergoing a similar experience will have similar memories of it.

It doesn't mean that the things they remember actually happened though.