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Neandertal genes found in all non-African populations

Yes, but a few years, maybe it was more like 6-7 years, some studies reputed to show Neanderthals did not leave any DNA and many evos jumped all over that to reassert the old idea they were something other than just people.

They were wrong.

Keep in mind they cooked, buried their dead, played music, and did all the things any tribe of humans do. They were just people with pronounced features, and it is no accident we see remnants of those features where they once lived, in Europe.

If you mix tribes more together, many specific features get washed out. If all Caucasians, for example, married non-Caucasians, it wouldn't take long before Caucasian features such as pale skin became less pronounced or disappeared for the most part altogether.
It's a little more than looks, randman. They didn't progress to the kind of tool use and other advanced things modern humans did. But there is a controversy about how different they actually were.

Neandertals
No other ancient people have aroused more controversy and confusion over the last century and a half than have the Neandertals. In fact, there is an on-going debate as to whether they should even be considered Homo sapiens. If they were members of our species, they were a different variety or race (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis). On the other hand, if they were dissimilar enough to be a distinct species, they should be called Homo neanderthalensis

Further:
Supporting evidence of interbreeding comes from 4 Neandertal skulls found in different locations in Europe. They appear to have a mixture of Neandertal and modern Homo sapiens anatomical characteristics. The implication is that some of the Neandertals interbred with modern humans resulting in gene flow between the populations. If that is true, then the genetic difference between us and them must not have been as great as would be expected between two distinct species. In other words, this would suggest that the Neandertals were a distant variety of Homo sapiens rather than a distinct species. One of the presumed Neandertal/modern human hybrids was a 4 year old child found in Portugal in 1999. What is striking about this fossil is that it dated to 24,500 years ago--3-4,000 years after the last known Neandertal.
 
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....

The neanderthal genome is clearly mapped and different than modern humans, we only share a trace of it. If neanderthal were just a different race of modern human, than their genome would not be as different as it is.
You seem to be making the same mistake here as casebro. See my reply to his post on the bottom of page 2.
 
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What term are you referring to? Evo is used by evolutionist proponents themselves in these debates, at least in many places. It's just short for evolutionist.

You're the only person I've ever seen use it. Do you have any link to its use by "evolutionists" (the full term itself is derogatory, in fact) ?
 
If you mix tribes more together, many specific features get washed out. If all Caucasians, for example, married non-Caucasians, it wouldn't take long before Caucasian features such as pale skin became less pronounced or disappeared for the most part altogether.
This is incredibly incomplete. The genetics of inter-population mixing is very complex, and often includes a number of selection pressures which favor specific genes and not others; to say it's a simple mixing or washing-out is the equivalent of sumarizing Romeo and Julliet as "Two teenagers kill themselves".
 
The first Neanderthal DNA that was sequenced indicated no modern human mixing. But when they sequenced the whole genome, they found some mixing. That was a few years ago.

My point is that the idea has been floating around for some time, and ONE study isn't definitive, so randman's victory dance is a bit foolish.
 
This is incredibly incomplete. The genetics of inter-population mixing is very complex, and often includes a number of selection pressures which favor specific genes and not others; to say it's a simple mixing or washing-out is the equivalent of sumarizing Romeo and Julliet as "Two teenagers kill themselves".

What selection pressures affect today's human population?
 
What selection pressures affect today's human population?
There are many. In industrialized countries women are giving birth later than they used to, which is a huge selection pressure. Modern medicines are another, as are modern diseases. The modern diet is something of a selection pressure (given that it's not quite what our Neolithic ancestors ate). Fashion and supermodels demonstrable create a sexual selection pressure. There are a lot more, but I think that proves the point that humans are not immune to selection.
 
since africans do not have neandertal genes, they would be simply Homo Sapiens. Thus, africans would be a difference species. That makes no sense.

now, instead of racism, it would be specism.
It's no different than the fact humans who migrated out of Africa developed light colored skin. It's just that since modern humans migrated, we've continued to interbreed. So we are all of African descent and so were Neanderthal ancestors.

Human evolution is slow because we take so long to reproduce. The Australian Aboriginals were somewhat isolated for 40,000-60,000 years IIRC. Neanderthals' ancestors left Africa as much as 400,000 years before modern humans migrated out of Africa again and crossed paths.

For new species to evolve you need isolation and selection pressures. If you don't have isolation, the population keeps mixing genes and it may drift as a group, but doesn't become a new species. So humans evolved different skin color, for example, but we didn't split into new species. The Neanderthals split from our common ancestors and didn't interbreed for 400,000 years. They would have been close to becoming a new species, but now it's clear they weren't fully different if one uses the ability to interbreed in the definition of species.

OTOH, ability to interbreed may not be so clear cut as a definition of species and I have no idea where that argument is these days. Genetic research has changed a lot of our ideas since the days when we only had the fossil record and current living organisms to study.
 
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For new species to evolve you usually need isolation and selection pressures.
Fixed that for you. This is allopatric speciation, which is one of several methods, and speciation CAN occur without isolation (ring species provide an example and a mechanism).

OTOH, ability to interbreed may not be so clear cut as a definition of species and I have no idea where that argument is these days.
The term "complete and utter bloody chaos" comes to mind. There's really no concensus as to what the definition of species is.
 
Citation, please.

The studies I've read (over 10 years ago, and some were pretty old) lacked any way to study DNA in fossils, but generally did not dismiss entirely the possibility that we (Cro-Magnons) interbred with Neandertals. (please note spelling, randman) The idea was untestable with technology of the time, thus was not eligible to become an actual theory.

....
The first Neanderthal DNA was analyzed in 1997.
 
Apollo, I don't want to take the time to rehash an old debate but it wasn't that long ago, evolutionists were saying Neanderthals were not a subspecies and did not mate with humans. Here is an article on that for example from 2008.



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/08/080812-neandertal-dna.html

Also, there is no evidence Neanderthals lacked the capacity for abstract thought.
I'm surprised that conclusion was still being drawn as late as 2008. I wonder if anyone in the scientific community has commented on these specific differing conclusions?
 
There are many. In industrialized countries women are giving birth later than they used to, which is a huge selection pressure. Modern medicines are another, as are modern diseases. The modern diet is something of a selection pressure (given that it's not quite what our Neolithic ancestors ate). Fashion and supermodels demonstrable create a sexual selection pressure. There are a lot more, but I think that proves the point that humans are not immune to selection.

Thanks. I guess the selection pressures among human beings are created by culture rather than environment. Sorry for the off topic question.
 
That's odd. I've read about the Neaderthal intermixing theory for far longer than a few years.

Yes, but a few years, maybe it was more like 6-7 years, some studies reputed to show Neanderthals did not leave any DNA and many evos jumped all over that to reassert the old idea they were something other than just people.

Citation, please.

The studies I've read (over 10 years ago, and some were pretty old) lacked any way to study DNA in fossils, but generally did not dismiss entirely the possibility that we (Cro-Magnons) interbred with Neandertals. (please note spelling, randman) The idea was untestable with technology of the time, thus was not eligible to become an actual theory.

The first Neanderthal DNA that was sequenced indicated no modern human mixing. But when they sequenced the whole genome, they found some mixing. That was a few years ago.

Sometimes one just has to laugh. The history of sapiens/neandertal interbreeding was covered in post 28: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7383211&postcount=28

The Neandertal genome, which paper announcement you posted at around post#5, Ginger, is about 60% complete, I believe. It included enough markers for the analysis Svante did.
 
I'm surprised that conclusion was still being drawn as late as 2008. I wonder if anyone in the scientific community has commented on these specific differing conclusions?

The conclusion that sapiens and neandertal were unrelated was published in 2006 by Svante Paabo of the Leipzig Kaiser Willhelm Institute of Genetics. It was based on analysis of mitochondrial DNA only. Then the same group published the announcement of nuclear DNA genome and the startling results that a prelimiinary investigation showed 1-4% neandertal crossover in all but sub-saharan Africans. That was in May, 2010.
 
Fixed that for you. This is allopatric speciation, which is one of several methods, and speciation CAN occur without isolation (ring species provide an example and a mechanism).

The term "complete and utter bloody chaos" comes to mind. There's really no concensus as to what the definition of species is.

Agreed. Under the "biological" definition of species, not only would neandertal be a subspecies, but a case could be made that there should be H. erectus Heidelburgensis, H erectus neandertalensis and H erectus sapiens.
 
Slashdot reports the following story:

(the headline blurb)

"Neanderthal Genes Found In All Non-African Populations
.

slashdot is a bit slow then, there are already two threads open on this subject
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174977&highlight=neanderthal+genes
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192198&highlight=neanderthal+genes
;)

Why does one "have to laugh" ? I've heard about this theory before 2006.

prior to 2006 the hypothesis was based on a handful of skeletons from Israel which showed traits of both sapiens and neandethal. The hypothesis at that time was that we had interbred locally on a very small scale, it was unproven, we knew that there had been some contact for sure because human body lice turned out to have evolved from headlice before homo sapiens itself evolved and the only known clothes wearer apart from us was Neanderthal, so like, at the least we took their jerbs and possibly some of their clothes
this theory is the same, but covers all of the world outside of Africa and is proven, know we know we took, their jerbs and possibly some of their clothes
and their women
;)
Have you seen Neanderthal women, this surely proves that the Sumerians weren't the first to come up with intoxicating liquor
:D
 
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