NDE: 90 Minutes in Heaven

[VulcanWay]

And here I thought you guys were talking about the party game where you're locked in a closet with a hottie...

Oh well.

 

[Minarvia]

Umm..you weren't clinically brain dead at all, for any amount of time.
You were simply under general anesthesia, which makes people unconscious.
There is no dreaming, no thoughts, no sense of self...nothing. It's lights out.
Nobody home. But, that's FAR from being brain dead.

Quick question...the team said my dad was Code Blue for almost 2 minutes before they were able to revive him. Did that mean he was really dead or not? They tried to explain to me and my family that he was dead, but maybe they just said that to let us know how close he acutally did come to dying at that time.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

If someone were to suffer clinical brain death, then it would be permanent. Once the brain shuts down, it shuts down for good IIRC. Most of the time when it comes to reviving someone, they're talking about restarting the heart or lungs, which of course serve to keep the brain alive. If they are able to revive someone, then obviously the brain is still working, and is still undergoing some activity.

 

[Minarvia]

Then my dad died horribly depressed for no reason, perhaps.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification. I should have put more thought into what precisely brain dead means.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The book says it happened between Trinity Pines, TX and Huntsville, TX, on Hwy 19.

I can't find anything with a quick google search, but the book included pictures of the accident. Additionally, he was required to wear a metal growth device on his leg to rebuild the bone that he had lost, which has left him with permanent walking problems. He also has some other obvious medical problems. His website gives a synopsis of what happened to him.

The only description I saw on the website was nonspecific. Do the pictures show his body under a sheet? Did they take him to the morgue? I am specifically looking for confirmation he was pronounced dead and what followed.

Frankly, I do not find the story completely credible. People have been misdiagnosed as dead and even taken to morgues. I've also seen a couple live patients brought in the ED after sitting in the field because someone assessed they were dead. I can tell you of 3 specific cases that happened that I personally witnessed the events and there are a few news accounts of people misdiagnosed as dead.

None of these people were really dead. Also, when these folks have surgery after an accident, the anesthestic ketamine can cause vivid dreams.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Then my dad died horribly depressed for no reason, perhaps.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification. I should have put more thought into what precisely brain dead means.

What are you saying? Was your father revived and died later? I don't get the depressed for no reason comment. If you don't mind my asking.

It's an incorrect description which was used for so long, no one thinks about changing it. Dying in the description you gave just means the heart stopped for 2 minutes. It really is not death at all. We define death now as the heart having stopped and no hope (or no desire in the case of do not resuscitate) of it starting again. That's when you would pronounce death by today's medical standards. Even brain death is not 'actual' death until the heart irreversibly stops.

Cardiac arrest is the correct medical term. Having "died" for 2 minutes and then being successfully revived is only "dying" by lay person's definitions. The fact the medical folks explained it to you as dying unfortunately is very common. I would never have described it that way to the patient or the family.

 

[oldunbeliever]

Actually, let me tell you all about my NDE. Well, I was told later that I was near death and it was an experience, so literally it was an NDE.

Many years ago I was very ill with pneumonia. In the hospital, drugged up, inside one of those breathing tent thingies, the whole bit. They told me later I almost died. When I came out of it I remembered a dream. I dreamed I was in a garden and there was a fence and in that fence was a gate. The gate partially opened and I could see the other side. It was the cliche version of paradise. Sunshine, flowers, people dancing, etc. etc. I heard a voice beckoning me to come in but I backed away, refused.

That's the dream I remembered when I woke up. Call it an NDE. But I had no inclination to construe it as anything other than a drug-induced dream. The drugged, unconscious brain scrounging around in its recesses for latent memories of childhood stories of Heaven. Nothing supernatural about it. Happens all the time I suspect. Some people are just less critical and want to make something mystical about it.

 

[Minarvia]

What I meant by his (perhaps) being depressed for no reason was due to his desperately hoping that there is possibly an afterlife. I personally don't think that there is, but I think there is still a possibility, however small, that there is. My dad asked what happened to him and when told he had been dead for 2 minutes and recalled nothing at all happening to him during that time he became horribly upset and depressed.
I guess what I'm trying to say is he took his lack of experiencing anything as proof positive of death being final. Had he known that he wasn't truly brain dead, he could have realized that his lack of an eperience didn't necessarily mean anything.

He had suffered a massive stroke, heart attack, and pneumonia. He was revived from a Code Blue (I was told) and did die several days later.

Gah, I'm tired this morning and probably making very little sense. I haven't had any caffeine yet and probably shouldn't be posting.

 

[Minarvia]

Actually, let me tell you all about my NDE. Well, I was told later that I was near death and it was an experience, so literally it was an NDE.

Many years ago I was very ill with pneumonia. In the hospital, drugged up, inside one of those breathing tent thingies, the whole bit. They told me later I almost died. When I came out of it I remembered a dream. I dreamed I was in a garden and there was a fence and in that fence was a gate. The gate partially opened and I could see the other side. It was the cliche version of paradise. Sunshine, flowers, people dancing, etc. etc. I heard a voice beckoning me to come in but I backed away, refused.

That's the dream I remembered when I woke up. Call it an NDE. But I had no inclination to construe it as anything other than a drug-induced dream. The drugged, unconscious brain scrounging around in its recesses for latent memories of childhood stories of Heaven. Nothing supernatural about it. Happens all the time I suspect. Some people are just less critical and want to make something mystical about it.

Thanks for sharing that. I don't think it was necessarily anything mystical, but it sure would be comforting. I hope when my time comes I see something like that.

 

[sackett]

Minarvia, I’m morally certain that Darth meant no disrespect at all. He’ll speak for himself, but I believe that he didn’t understand (as I didn’t) that your father had died.

I hope that when his time came your father found relief from his depression and anxiety. The peace of acceptance can come to dying people – it may do so often -- and sometimes they express it to those who are watching with them. That’s a far finer thing than any hallucination.

This business of an afterlife comes up on the forum from time to time. Not enough thought is given to it, in my opinion. Consider the terrifying idea of eternity. Would anyone really want to live forever? If some part of us survives death, is it literally condemned to exist for all of eternity? Who would wish to be alive, if he must live literally FOREVER?

A poster here once observed that the most exquisite Heaven would become Hell long before eternity had elapsed – and what if you had no escape from it? It's impossible to imagine a more horrible fate.

I’ve said this before, and I’m ready to say it again and again: Humans are finite beings; we aren’t made for infinite things. In the end, we need our sleep.

 

[Minarvia]

Thanks, Sackett. I agree; I think we all do need our sleep.
And I shouldn't have said anything to DR. At first I thought my post was clear when I said that my dad recovered for a short while (after his recussitation) but now that I re-read I can see that it isn't. It's all good, anyway.

I'm glad this does come up now and again. Forever would indeed be too much. Unless, of course, we only live "forever" as in as long as the Universe will last, which is only, what, 16 billion years? I don't recall the number, but even that would be a bit much, imo.

I do have to wonder, tho, if congenitally blind people "see" during a NDE and the deaf "hear." I've never come across any such account, but then I've never really dug into it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

What I meant by his (perhaps) being depressed for no reason was due to his desperately hoping that there is possibly an afterlife. I personally don't think that there is, but I think there is still a possibility, however small, that there is. My dad asked what happened to him and when told he had been dead for 2 minutes and recalled nothing at all happening to him during that time he became horribly upset and depressed.
I guess what I'm trying to say is he took his lack of experiencing anything as proof positive of death being final. Had he known that he wasn't truly brain dead, he could have realized that his lack of an eperience didn't necessarily mean anything.

He had suffered a massive stroke, heart attack, and pneumonia. He was revived from a Code Blue (I was told) and did die several days later.

Gah, I'm tired this morning and probably making very little sense. I haven't had any caffeine yet and probably shouldn't be posting.

Wow, that's sad if some mis-statement by a well intentioned health care worker led to sadness for your dad. But there is another explanation for his depression. I worked in intensive care for a number of years before becoming a nurse practitioner. I have seen many people who survived serious events like heart attack and/or stroke. It has been my experience that when the person remains seriously depressed after they are revived, they almost always do die before leaving the hospital. Either the depression is due to brain damage or just the fact the heart is functioning so poorly they don't feel well or some other reason or combination of reasons, I don't know. But I do know it isn't uncommon. I would think your father's physical illness had more to do with the depression than just his questioning his belief in the afterlife.

I'm sorry for your loss either way.

 

[Minarvia]

Thanks, Skeptigirl. And I know you are right. I hadn't thought of the other reasons for his depression. I guess if I was seriously ill and in the hospital and had been thru so much I would be horribly depressed, too.
I guess I should have stuck more to the topic than wandering off an a memory. Sorry, everyone.

As for Mr. Piper, as referenced in the OP, I think I'll have a look around the web and see what this guy is saying, exactly. I'll just say, for the moment, that I hope he isn't another Bette Eadie. Her book really hit home to me (from what I remember of it) as being so totally subjective that I couldn't really take her conclusions as being able to realistically applying to everyone.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

My sister-in-law had a heart attack and went into cardiac arrest. People at the house did CPR, the EMS got there in 10 minutes and restarted her heart. In that 10 minutes she was brain dead. I spent hours after it happened looking into what kills the brain with CPR being performed in the field. (In the hospital CPR is different as they do a lot of other things. I won't get into the details but the 10 minute survival doesn't apply there.) I spoke with some colleagues who were involved in top notch research in the area of resuscitation, one was the head of the Medic program here in Bellevue and that program is part of Seattle's nationally famous Medic I program. We save more people under the King County Medic 1 program here than just about any other system in the world.

What I found out was the brain just doesn't survive more than 10 minutes unless the person is hypothermic. This guy was not clinically dead for 30 minutes unless he was indeed very very cold. That's not even getting into the fact he's a preacher, so what's the big deal he dreamed he was in heaven? Either there had to be very cold climate involved or the guy is lying to sell his book and maybe excusing his actions by believing he is lying for Jesus.

If he were severely hypothermic, it can preserve brain function. He could have been revived then after 30 minutes. Otherwise, he dreamed the whole thing during his recovery or just plain made the story up. He wouldn't be the first Christian scammer or the first liar for Jesus.

But regardless of it having really occurred or not, if it did, where's the evidence it wasn't just a dream?

Sorry if I'm repeating myself or material already covered. I'll try to read more of the posts in the thread tomorrow.

 

[amb]

My mother gave me a book a little while back that actually led to me finding this forum. The book was 90 Minutes in Heaven, by Don Piper.

The book chronicles his tale of having an automobile accident while driving home from a pastor's conference. He was pronounced dead on the scene by EMT's. After an hour an a half, another preacher from the conference came and "felt God telling him to pray for him," even though the EMT's were saying he was dead. He went and prayed for him, and after a minute or two, the dead pastor woke up and started singing.

The pastor reports experiencing a near death experience, where he went to Heaven and saw many of his old friends who had died. They went through the gates of Heaven, where he saw streets of gold and heard angels singing. The place was bright and beautiful, by his description.

Anyway, I did some research on the subject of NDE's after reading the book, including this forum, and came to the conclusion that they represent the brain shutting down.

Today, I had a conversation with one of the secretaries in the building where I work about this book. I made no effort to contradict her (have to keep the secretaries happy), and while I pandered to her belief, she reminded me of the string of coincidences that happened to the man.

He had a wreck and died (was pronounced dead, anyway). His leg and arm were crushed, and the EMT's thought he should have bled to death (if he didn't die from being crushed). The other pastor came and felt God urging him to pray for him. After waking up from death, the pastor felt a hand holding his, but the pastor praying for him had his hand on his shoulder (he concludes that it was an angel's hand).

Anyway, I don't think that any of this is proof of anything, but I am curious if anyone is familiar with Don Piper or might know more than I do about NDE's. I think the best possible evidence for God lies in NDE's being true, but from what I have studied, near-death is questionable at best. If anyone could share their thoughts, they are much appreciated.

There's pastors involved. Say no more. There's been people who were thought to be dead for longer than that and suddenly come out of their coma just before a postmortem was about to begin. These people registered a flat line on monitors yet survived. only a very few experienced a NDE. The human body is capable of shutting down to a minute, not registering on a monitor state, yet still very much alive. The facts are that although man has been on this planet in almost his present state for more than 50.000 years, yet not one really dead person has ever come back to tell us about the ''other side''. You would think after all this time we would have proof of life after death. That we don't, really says it all.

 

[amb]

Thanks for the link! Very informative.

I have the book. Author is Robert Todd Carroll. Creator of WWW.Skepdic.com

 

[Dogmeat]

Exactly. I would point out that if the Norse had colonized North America instead of the British, then we would probably have their culture and their religious beliefs. A person suffering from an NDE would say, "I saw Valhalla, and I even sparred with old friends, relatives, and war heroes from ages past!"

Actually, that sounds like a lot more fun than the Christian Heaven.

The interesting thing is that's EXACTLY what happens. I used to be into NDEs a lot and read that research done on the subject revealed people experience things in their NDEs that are dependant on their culture. A lot of westerners tend to experience the Biblical afterlife while muslim cultures tend to have a lot of Islamnic afterlife experiences, etc. It's the same in every culture around the world.

The pro-NDE researchers insisted that this is evidence in FAVOUR of their authenticity, arguing things like it proved the afterlife is mutable by our beliefs and whatever other New Age interpretations they could shoehorn in.

 

[amb]

The interesting this is that's EXACTLY what happens. I used to be into NDEs a lot and read that research done on the subject revealed people experience things in their NDEs that are dependant on their culture. A lot of westerners tend to experience the Biblical afterlife while muslim cultures tend to have a lot of Islamnic afterlife experiences, etc. It's the same in every culture around the world.

The pro-NDE researchers insisted that this is evidence in FAVOUR of their authenticity, arguing things like it proved the afterlife is mutable by our beliefs and whatever other New Age interpretations they could shoehorn in.

Does that not prove that the phenomenon is culturally based. Muslims see Mohammad, Christians see Jesus or the virgin Mary. Red Indians see the great white spirit. Not too many seem to see Satan, I wonder why? Too unpleasant?

 

[Dogmeat]

Does that not prove that the phenomenon is culturally based. Muslims see Mohammad, Christians see Jesus or the virgin Mary. Red Indians see the great white spirit.

I agree, I get the impression that it's all just cultural conditioning.

Not too many seem to see Satan, I wonder why? Too unpleasant?

There are a lot of NDEs of Hell and Satan, but it could be the result of religious people with an agenda manufacturing a lot of those, I've personally seen a nummber of "liars for Jesus" heavily editing existing NDE stories to give them a more pro-Christian slant. Still there ARE Hell-based NDEs, they're often ignored by the "scientists" who are astonishingly and shamelessly biased in what they tell their New Age fans.

I think the main thing is that the vast majority of these experiences cater to the particular beliefs and cultures of the people who have them, which indicates to me at least that it's the brain malfunctioning. I won't say they definitely are because NDE supporters have a load of anecdotal stories that have things like future predictions and "coming back" with knowledge they couldn't have known before (such as "veridical" NDEs). But no matter how moving the stories are it doesn't change the fact that they're still anecdotal and not real evidence.

 

[amb]

I agree, I get the impression that it's all just cultural conditioning.



There are a lot of NDEs of Hell and Satan, but it could be the result of religious people with an agenda manufacturing a lot of those, I've personally seen a nummber of "liars for Jesus" heavily editing existing NDE stories to give them a more pro-Christian slant. Still there ARE Hell-based NDEs, they're often ignored by the "scientists" who are astonishingly and shamelessly biased in what they tell their New Age fans.

I think the main thing is that the vast majority of these experiences cater to the particular beliefs and cultures of the people who have them, which indicates to me at least that it's the brain malfunctioning. I won't say they definitely are because NDE supporters have a load of anecdotal stories that have things like future predictions and "coming back" with knowledge they couldn't have known before (such as "veridical" NDEs). But no matter how moving the stories are it doesn't change the fact that they're still anecdotal and not real evidence.

Has anyone ever returned with an earth shattering news of a future event that actually come to pass? Look a bit closer and you will find a dead rat.
A lot of the stories have been exagerated beyond sounding like S/F tales.

Angelo.