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Natural selection

Perhaps a general example of where this difference is applicable would help.

Mendelian genetics might predict that the probability of gene "X" showing up in the population is 25%. If reality was that simple, you might as well roll a 4-sided die, to try to predict who will have it or not.

But, reality is not that simple. Evolution could explain in better detail, the phenotypes of that gene, and its effects on survival in the given environment. The more we learn about these effects, and the gene's lineage, the better we can predict who will have it, or not: It is beats the die-roll.

So, it turns out genetics could well be described as a stochastic process.

It is not the completely-random-chance nonsense, analogous to a lucky "dice throw", that creationists like to claim it is.

That is a distinction without a difference. The complexity of determining an individual's final probability of survival has no effect on whether or not evolution is a stochastic process. If there is more than one outcome for a given phenotype, the selection process is stochastic.
 
If there is more than one outcome for a given phenotype, the selection process is stochastic.

phenotype -> selection WRONG

phenotype + environment -> selection RIGHT

There is no a magical phenotype selector function out there. When are you going to grasp this ****ing simple point?
 
Half the forum picking apart every sentence of every post again and again?

Hey! Nobody does that...

I'm not so sure this clarifies anything.

Neither am I...

It's just argument for the sake of argument.

Indeed.

Everyone seems to be piling on to score points and feel smart.

Don't we all ?

We're just playing to their persecution complex and burying good explanations in squabbling nobody looking for answers is interested in reading.

Ha! You said it, pal!

If our goal really is to explain and change minds, we need to stop being so pedantic.

I agree!

(Okay, okay! I'm just fooling around ;) )
 
Gosh, I am such a clutz!!

I totally forgot to mention E. O. Wilson in my list of authors to read books of!!!!! How could I be so stupid! No thread related to sociobiology is complete without a mention of E.O. Wilson!! Read his books, and there you will find many of the answers!
 
Yes, of course you could explain stuff without using evolution. My point was that adding evolution to an explanation helps us discover more about it!

For example,
We could describe genes in purely Mendelian ways, using terms such as "recessive" and "dominant" characteristics. However, when we apply Evolution by Natural Selection, we can explore precisely why one characteristic is dominant over the other. And, we can then apply that to make more precise predictions in population dynamics, than Mendel alone.

Just a nitpick.

The penetrance and dominance of an alelle is regulated by the chemistry of the interactions of various genes and/or the chemistry of the proteins the alelle codes for. Natural selection (as far as I am aware) doesn't alter the characteristics of genes, but opperates on the reproductive unit (the organism) based on the phenotype expressed.
 
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phenotype -> selection WRONG

phenotype + environment -> selection RIGHT

There is no a magical phenotype selector function out there. When are you going to grasp this ****ing simple point?

I do grasp your point. The fact that you don't want to admit that I understand evolution make it easy for you to build straw men like the summary of my argument that you provided above.
 
I do grasp your point. The fact that you don't want to admit that I understand evolution make it easy for you to build straw men like the summary of my argument that you provided above.

Your argument is that if there are two different outcomes in "selection" for a given pair of identical phenotypes then that outcome is "random".

Well, if I shove my twin in the lake and he drowns because he doesn't have gills I hardly think it would be descriptive to say that my selection was "random". This is something you refuse to acknowledge.
 
Just a nitpick.

The penetrance and dominance of an alelle is regulated by the chemistry of the interactions of various genes and/or the chemistry of the proteins the alelle codes for. Natural selection (as far as I am aware) doesn't alter the characteristics of genes, but opperates on the reproductive unit (the organism) based on the phenotype expressed.

Well, it's a matter of scale. Natural selection doesn't directly alter anything, of course, it just creates survival rate differences between differing traits. These traits could be a large phenotypic trait, such as having wings, or they could be a small genotypic trait, such as one allele having a more favourable epigenetic characteristics for transcription. Even small pseudogenes, such as certain transposable elements, are affected by selection (if their presence in an organism's genome was overly negative, then they would be selected against, even if their existance never manifested as a phenotypic trait).
 
phenotype -> selection WRONG

phenotype + environment -> selection RIGHT

There is no a magical phenotype selector function out there. When are you going to grasp this ****ing simple point?

This is indeed correct. The problem is pretty prolific, though, including the language which is used to describe evolution. We talk of natural selection selecting for certain traits. While it is helpful to be able to personify the process this way, a more accurate description of natural selection is that it is a phenomenon, rather then any form of selective force.
 
Your argument is that if there are two different outcomes in "selection" for a given pair of identical phenotypes then that outcome is "random".

Well, if I shove my twin in the lake and he drowns because he doesn't have gills I hardly think it would be descriptive to say that my selection was "random". This is something you refuse to acknowledge.

I agree with you, cyborg. Perhaps a better way to describe selection is that skews the associated probabilities of survival in one direction or another?
 
I agree with you, cyborg. Perhaps a better way to describe selection is that skews the associated probabilities of survival in one direction or another?

I have previously analogised to a game.

You are a player. You have certain abilities. You must play to win.

What are the rules? You and the other players and the environment and physics determines that.

Which players will win? Until one actually puts the game in motion it's hard to tell - because the rules of the game are in part dictated by who wins during the game.

Probabilistic analysis will tell you about the game space. Only actually playing the game will tell you about any particular outcome.
 
I have previously analogised to a game.

You are a player. You have certain abilities. You must play to win.

What are the rules? You and the other players and the environment and physics determines that.

Which players will win? Until one actually puts the game in motion it's hard to tell - because the rules of the game are in part dictated by who wins during the game.

Probabilistic analysis will tell you about the game space. Only actually playing the game will tell you about any particular outcome.

That's actually a good analogy! I may steal it. :D
 
When discussing randomness, simply doing something once and looking at the results will tell you if it is random or not.

You either have to do it many times under identical conditions, or if practicality prevents that you have to look at the constituent processes to make that determination.

Walt
 
Your argument is that if there are two different outcomes in "selection" for a given pair of identical phenotypes then that outcome is "random".

Well, if I shove my twin in the lake and he drowns because he doesn't have gills I hardly think it would be descriptive to say that my selection was "random". This is something you refuse to acknowledge.

You are still quite deliberately misrepresenting my argument. I never said that the survival of a terrestrial life form put into an aquatic environment was random; I merely claimed (and this should be quite obvious from out previous discussion) that, within that constraints of a environmental niche, a species most likely has some genetic variability in phenotype that allows some individuals more efficient access to the resources needed for survival and reproduction. However, individuals with identical phenotypes do not always have identical access to the resources necessary for survival and reproduction and therefore don't necessarily all survive and reproduce. Thus, since identical phenotypes do not always yield survival and reproduction, evolution by natural selection is a stochastic process.

By the way, you twin example is a text-book case of a straw man. You and your twin are exposed to radically different environments; therefore, you cannot make a valid comparison between your survival his lack thereof that makes environmental selection deterministic.
 
Genes combinations that result in dark hair will naturally be more prevalent than light hair, because dark pigment will overpower light pigment. However, things get more complicated if there are survival advantages in having light-colored hair; or if sexual selection favors light hair. Then you would eventually see light hair dominating the population, in ways mendelian genetics can not explain on its own, at least not with any precision.
Ah, now I can see how you're getting confused.

You used the terms "recessive" and "dominant" in reference to Mendelian characteristics, but now you use the term "dominating" with respect to population genetics. In population biology, genes and genotypes are talked about in terms of proportion or frequency, not dominance.

And your example, you are wrong. Gene combinations that result in dark hair need not be more prevalent in a population, just because of how the genes are expressed. It may be that, in a particular population, genes for hair pigment are rare. Individuals with a high dose of pigment genes will have darker hair (that's Mendelian dominance), but they might not be prevalent in the population.


And so, in response to my question about explaining dominance of the cystic fibrosis wild-type gene, you answer with
There are a few theories. Resistance to cholera being the most prevalent, it seems.
which the answer to the question of persistance of the mutant type in the population.

But the reasons for the Mendelian inheritance pattern was clear when it was discovered that CF is caused by mutations in the CF transmembrane conductance regulator (CFTR) gene expressed in certain epithelial cells, the most common a 3 bp deletion termed deltaF508. The function of this protein is to regulate other ion channels and pH, among other processes.

So, individuals lacking functional CFTR tend to "leak" fluids, and in the lungs this leads lung disease typical of CF. However, as long has a person has at least one gene that produces a functional CFTR, they won't exhibit the phenotype of CF. Therefore, if you have two normal genes, you don't get CF; if you have one normal and one mutant, you don't get CF; only when you have both mutant alleles will you develop CF.

That is a classical Mendelian inheritance pattern; we can describe CF solely in terms of the biochemistry, molecular and cellular biology of CFTR.

We can add to the story by noting that some known derived from evolutionary theory greatly spread the discovery of the CFTR gene, in that homologies to related proteins and chromosomal organization among humans and model organisms helped track the specific DNA sequence and to understand gene function, but ultimately, the gene could have been found using just human pedigrees.

Harder, but doable.

We can explain the persistence of the gene by noting that it seems, in heterozygotes, to confer some resistance to cholera. The cholera pathogen isn't in and of itself deadly, but it triggers fluid loss to the extant that victims die from dehydration. However, since heterozygotes don't have as many functional CFTR proteins (because they have a mutant gene), they are less responsive to cholera.

About the only thing that evolutionary theory adds to the story is that, using methods of molecular evolution, the deltaF508 has been dated to around 50,000 years ago.


Really, until you get a proper grasp on Mendelian and population genetics, you'll have a hard time making any headway about randomness in evolution. This kind of statement,
Mendelian genetics might predict that the probability of gene "X" showing up in the population is 25%. If reality was that simple, you might as well roll a 4-sided die, to try to predict who will have it or not.
suggests you confuse the two, because with Mendelian genetics it really as simple as rolling a 4-sided die (actually, it's two independent coin flips - the law of independent assortment); and Mendelian genetics tells nothing about the probability of a gene showing up in a population, only the probabilities of genotypes (and phenotypes) in the offspring of specific crosses.

You might want to read this:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/population-genetics/

The rich and healthy have adapted a survival strategy, where they don't need to reproduce as much, because their children are more likely going to be healthy and survive.

The sick and poor have adapted a strategy where they just try to have as many children as possible, in hopes that some of them will survive.

That summary over-simplifies the matter, some-what. There are a lot of complicated other aspects involved. But, is that a good start?
Way over-simplifies. You're starting with the outcome, and assuming that the populations deliberately chose strategies to achieve that outcome.

But that's not how evolution works. Organisms simply go on with their lives, and if their way of living is productive in a given environment, they'll more likely reproduce than not reproduce.

It may be more simply that rich and healthy make better choices about lifestyle - that impulse control thing I linked to earlier. They stay in a work to build a nest egg before having kids because it makes them feel secure. Perhaps people with little regard for the future, instead of saving money go out and party and have unprotected sex because they just don't care about the future, that way ending up with more kids. These people don't think about the future, their not going to think about health care.

Or perhaps the original observation is flawed - people have as many kids as they can afford, and rich people can afford more kids. Poor sickly guys don't get laid much.

Really, I most the questions I asked were rhetorical. But this one tells me that you don't understand selection.

Organisms don't adapt (or did you adopt, because adapt has a different meaning here) strategies to maximize survival, instead the different "survival strategies" are selected for or against by the environment.

A couple years ago, I took an exercise physiology class; this shortly after taking a quantitative genetics class. In the ex. phys. class, I was struck by the different meanings of "adaptation".

In exercise physiology, adaptations are the things your bodies does in response to exercise; to adapt to repeated stress - increased cardiovascular capacity, for example. In quantitative genetics, though, the adaptation is predetermined - some people are better adapted for distance running (like, say, Kenyans) and no amount of training is going to make them good sprinters.

Physiological adaptations are things you can change about yourself, genetic adaptations are the things you are lucky (or unlucky) enough to have been born with.

Here, I'm using physiological adaptation to be pretty much equivalent to "phenotype" and genetic adaptation as "genotype"; when you say "rich and healthy have adapted a survival strategy", it sounds more like a physiological adaption, not a genetic adaptation. Not something that is necessarily heritable.

Selection acts the physiological adaptation, but transmission occurs through the genetic adaption. Physiological adaptations get you through immediate environmental changes, but genetic adaptations persist over generations in a common environment.

It's not about just the children; evolutionary selection generally acts across multiple generations.
Though, for quick-and-dirty purposes, you could define "all-natural" as any life forms where humans have not intentionally altered the course of their evolution.
It wasn't all-natural as opposed to life forms I was curious about; it's the application fitness landscape in your statement.

Certain genes made some life forms easier to domesticate, than others. Those that were domesticated found their forms being altered (fruits would be larger, for example, and dogs better able to sniff-out foxes...). Genes that allowed for these preferred alterations would tend to survive and reproduce more effectively, among humans, than those without the favored features.
That's domestication, but not artificial selection. Domestication in many cases may be better explained in terms of co-evolution.

But what makes artificial selection a Darwinian process?


Taffer said:
Perhaps a better way to describe selection is that skews the associated probabilities of survival in one direction or another?

Consider it this way - you can count cards at Vegas to skew your odds that will beat the house. That's the genotype.

But you can still lose any given hand. That's selection.

At the end of the day, if you have more money than the house, that's evolution.
 
Oh, come on!
Is there no one else who is as angry as I am, over the fact that I neglected to mention E. O. Wilson, a very important figure in these issues, until earlier today?!

If you're all going to pick on someone's arguments, why don't you pick on my lousy memory?!!
 
Oh, come on!
Is there no one else who is as angry as I am, over the fact that I neglected to mention E. O. Wilson, a very important figure in these issues, until earlier today?!

If you're all going to pick on someone's arguments, why don't you pick on my lousy memory?!!
I haven't seen E. O. Wilson post since you so cruelly neglected to mention his contribution. Way to drive away members!
 
You used the terms "recessive" and "dominant" in reference to Mendelian characteristics, but now you use the term "dominating" with respect to population genetics. In population biology, genes and genotypes are talked about in terms of proportion or frequency, not dominance.
Ah! Good catch, there. I might have accidentally used confusing terminology. Replace "see light hair dominating the population", with "see light hair overwhelming the population", and the argument still holds.

Other than that one slip, I do think it looks as though I used the term "dominant" properly.

And your example, you are wrong. Gene combinations that result in dark hair need not be more prevalent in a population, just because of how the genes are expressed. It may be that, in a particular population, genes for hair pigment are rare. Individuals with a high dose of pigment genes will have darker hair (that's Mendelian dominance), but they might not be prevalent in the population.
And, my point was that Darwinian Evolution could make more precise predictions, than Mendel, alone, in that manner.

That is a classical Mendelian inheritance pattern; we can describe CF solely in terms of the biochemistry, molecular and cellular biology of CFTR.
I didn't say you couldn't. Only that Evolution could also explain it, and add more to it than that, including why it persisted.

About the only thing that evolutionary theory adds to the story is that, using methods of molecular evolution, the deltaF508 has been dated to around 50,000 years ago.
But, do you not see how Evolution wraps the whole thing up? Some of it might be "hard, but doable". However, in the quest for ever greater precision, it is nice to have such a powerful principal around.

with Mendelian genetics it really as simple as rolling a 4-sided die (actually, it's two independent coin flips - the law of independent assortment); and Mendelian genetics tells nothing about the probability of a gene showing up in a population, only the probabilities of genotypes (and phenotypes) in the offspring of specific crosses.
Yes, I knew all that. Re-read what I said. Evolution shows us that reality is not that simple, by helping us make even more precise predictions.

Way over-simplifies. You're starting with the outcome, and assuming that the populations deliberately chose strategies to achieve that outcome.
I did not mean to imply that it was deliberate. That is a common language-related problem, when discussing Darwinian evolution. It always sounds like it was deliberate, even though it was not. "Genes are selfish." "Birds will calculate an optimal egg-number-to-yolk-content ratio." Etc.

This is merely a language quirk, not something to be taken as literal intention.

Or perhaps the original observation is flawed - people have as many kids as they can afford, and rich people can afford more kids. Poor sickly guys don't get laid much.
I think it's fairly well accepted that better-educated, and richer folks, do tend to have fewer children than poor, less-educated folks.

Organisms don't adapt (or did you adopt, because adapt has a different meaning here) strategies to maximize survival, instead the different "survival strategies" are selected for or against by the environment.
Yes, I can assure you that I am not as ill-informed on these matters as you think I am. Perhaps my writing was not clear enough for you. But, as I said earlier, it is a quirk in the language that folks tend to talk about life forms as if they are maximizing their survival, instead of the environment selecting from strategies.

In the end it all looks the same.
We still use the words sunrise and sunset, even though we know better.

(Incidentally, I do not think it matters, in the end, which word: "adapt" or "adopt", that you use. I understand they have different meanings. However, since the strategy they adopted, was an adaptation, they both seem to fit. If you prefer "adopt", then use that, instead. Whatever.)

It wasn't all-natural as opposed to life forms I was curious about; it's the application fitness landscape in your statement.
That is also tricky. But, for quick and dirty purposes, it is the same thing: "an environment in which humans were not intentionally changing the course of the life form's evolution."

That's domestication, but not artificial selection.
It is like squares and rectangles: All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

All forms of domestication are artificial selection. But, not all artificial selection would be for domestication.

Domestication in many cases may be better explained in terms of co-evolution.
Which is a form of...??? (I'll give you a hint: Its initials are "D.E.")

But what makes artificial selection a Darwinian process?
What part of it is not Darwinian? You have all the basic tenants, there. The only difference is that humans are playing a large role in how fitness is measured.
 
Ah, now I can see how you're getting confused.

You used the terms "recessive" and "dominant" in reference to Mendelian characteristics, but now you use the term "dominating" with respect to population genetics. In population biology, genes and genotypes are talked about in terms of proportion or frequency, not dominance.

Small nitpick, dominant and recessive alleles are still dealt with in population genetics. That's what p and q are. ;)

And your example, you are wrong. Gene combinations that result in dark hair need not be more prevalent in a population, just because of how the genes are expressed. It may be that, in a particular population, genes for hair pigment are rare. Individuals with a high dose of pigment genes will have darker hair (that's Mendelian dominance), but they might not be prevalent in the population.

Correct, although it'd be closer to incomplete dominance.

And so, in response to my question about explaining dominance of the cystic fibrosis wild-type gene, you answer with

which the answer to the question of persistance of the mutant type in the population.

But the reasons for the Mendelian inheritance pattern was clear when it was discovered that CF is caused by mutations in the CF transmembrane conductance regulator (CFTR) gene expressed in certain epithelial cells, the most common a 3 bp deletion termed deltaF508. The function of this protein is to regulate other ion channels and pH, among other processes.

So, individuals lacking functional CFTR tend to "leak" fluids, and in the lungs this leads lung disease typical of CF. However, as long has a person has at least one gene that produces a functional CFTR, they won't exhibit the phenotype of CF. Therefore, if you have two normal genes, you don't get CF; if you have one normal and one mutant, you don't get CF; only when you have both mutant alleles will you develop CF.

That is a classical Mendelian inheritance pattern; we can describe CF solely in terms of the biochemistry, molecular and cellular biology of CFTR.

I'm confused. Where are the lines between mendelian inheritance, genetics and current evolutionary theory drawn?

We can add to the story by noting that some known derived from evolutionary theory greatly spread the discovery of the CFTR gene, in that homologies to related proteins and chromosomal organization among humans and model organisms helped track the specific DNA sequence and to understand gene function, but ultimately, the gene could have been found using just human pedigrees.

Harder, but doable.

We can explain the persistence of the gene by noting that it seems, in heterozygotes, to confer some resistance to cholera. The cholera pathogen isn't in and of itself deadly, but it triggers fluid loss to the extant that victims die from dehydration. However, since heterozygotes don't have as many functional CFTR proteins (because they have a mutant gene), they are less responsive to cholera.

About the only thing that evolutionary theory adds to the story is that, using methods of molecular evolution, the deltaF508 has been dated to around 50,000 years ago.

Molecular evolution is only one part of current evolutionary theory. You seem to be treating it as if it is the entirety of all evolutionary theory.

Really, until you get a proper grasp on Mendelian and population genetics, you'll have a hard time making any headway about randomness in evolution. This kind of statement,

suggests you confuse the two, because with Mendelian genetics it really as simple as rolling a 4-sided die (actually, it's two independent coin flips - the law of independent assortment); and Mendelian genetics tells nothing about the probability of a gene showing up in a population, only the probabilities of genotypes (and phenotypes) in the offspring of specific crosses.

You're right, but there isn't really a seperate line between "mendelian genetics" and "evolutionary genetics". Mendelian inheritance is just another form of allele inheritance in sexually reproducing organisms.

It's not about just the children; evolutionary selection generally acts across multiple generations.

Selection is working across all levels of the spectrum. It even works within the same organism (T-cell generation, for example).

But what makes artificial selection a Darwinian process?

Selection is selection. Artificial selection is just the same as natural selection, where humans have created one or more extra evolutionary pressures. Just because we decided what those pressures would be doesn't change how it works.

Consider it this way - you can count cards at Vegas to skew your odds that will beat the house. That's the genotype.

But you can still lose any given hand. That's selection.

At the end of the day, if you have more money than the house, that's evolution.

Not really. You can't really seperate evolution and selection like that. Selection and evolution are just names for phenomena, not seperate processes.
 
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