Split Thread NATO borders impacting the Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Vixen]

and the borders with Finland, Mongolia, Kazakhstan and their arctic and Pacific coasts?

It also has a border with Norway.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It also has a border with Norway.

Tiny

 

[Vixen]

Tiny

What do you mean 'tiny'? It is quality that counts, not quantity.

The top of Finland and Sweden is deliberately designated Norwegian on the insistence of Russia, terrified that it gives great strategic access to the White Sea and Murmansk. Massive Russian military bases there. That is why Russia as the USSR insisted Finland and Sweden be cut off from it, by calling the area 'Norway'.

Norway's border with Russia is of enormous importance, not 'tiny'. In fact, the shorter the border, the greater the risk of impingement.

Everything Russia does is for a reason. It is attacking Ukraine now because it can. It has never had its wings clipped, thanks to 'winning' WWII and being able to make demands, many of which were removed in the fall of the USSR in 1991 and which Putin wants to reinstate as per his emulation of his great hero, Stalin: a ruthless monster.

 

[Andy_Ross]

What do you mean 'tiny'? It is quality that counts, not quantity.

The top of Finland and Sweden is deliberately designated Norwegian on the insistence of Russia, terrified that it gives great strategic access to the White Sea and Murmansk. Massive Russian military bases there. That is why Russia as the USSR insisted Finland and Sweden be cut off from it, by calling the area 'Norway'.

Norway's border with Russia is of enormous importance, not 'tiny'. In fact, the shorter the border, the greater the risk of impingement.

Everything Russia does is for a reason. It is attacking Ukraine now because it can. It has never had its wings clipped, thanks to 'winning' WWII and being able to make demands, many of which were removed in the fall of the USSR in 1991 and which Putin wants to reinstate as per his emulation of his great hero, Stalin: a ruthless monster.

It's still a tiny border. 195.7km compared to Kazakhstan which is 7,644km or Mongolia which is 3,452km.


The border with Norway could be defended with a small force compared to any of the others.
Even the borders with Latvia at 214km and Estonia at 294km would take larger forces to defend.

 

[Vixen]

It's still a tiny border. 195.7km compared to Kazakhstan which is 7,644km or Mongolia which is 3,452km.


The border with Norway could be defended with a small force compared to any of the others.
Even the borders with Latvia at 214km and Estonia at 294km would take larger forces to defend.

It is not the length that counts. It is what the border protects that is important. Finland used to have access on the north east border, which was removed by the USSR after the war, for the same reason it removed the Petsamo Corridor. It is well worth examining why post-WWII borders are where they are. Russia as USSR had a big say, and that is one reason it has a military advantage today. If it can overcome Mariupol in the south and Kherson, which it already has (for now), it could have a direct path along the border of Belarus, its puppet vassal state, all the way through to Kaliningrad, giving it enormous strategic control and a threat to Scandinavia. One of Putins siloviki appeared on television seeming to outline the military longer term plan to invade Gotland, via the Baltic States and as based at Kaliningrad and a couple of military base islands it stole from Finland after WWII..

 

[Andy_Ross]

It is not the length that counts. It is what the border protects that is important. Finland used to have access on the north east border, which was removed by the USSR after the war, for the same reason it removed the Petsamo Corridor. It is well worth examining why post-WWII borders are where they are. Russia as USSR had a big say, and that is one reason it has a military advantage today. If it can overcome Mariupol in the south and Kherson, which it already has (for now), it could have a direct path along the border of Belarus, its puppet vassal state, all the way through to Kaliningrad, giving it enormous strategic control and a threat to Scandinavia. One of Putins siloviki appeared on television seeming to outline the military longer term plan to invade Gotland, via the Baltic States and as based at Kaliningrad and a couple of military base islands it stole from Finland after WWII..

Which has what to do with the length of the border for Russian defensive purposes?
This digressions started with speculation about the forced Russia would have to keep back to defend it's borders.
Large forces will be needed to patrol borders thousands of kilometers long whereas a small force is all that is needed to defend the border with Norway, that's why it wasn't mentioned, same as those borders with Latvia and Estonia.

 

[Vixen]

Which has what to do with the length of the border for Russian defensive purposes?
This digressions started with speculation about the forced Russia would have to keep back to defend it's borders.
Large forces will be needed to patrol borders thousands of kilometers long whereas a small force is all that is needed to defend the border with Norway, that's why it wasn't mentioned, same as those borders with Latvia and Estonia.

It is important owing to Putin's professed paranoia about NATO. Norway is one of just two NATO countries that have a border with Russia, the other being Turkey.

You can keep saying it is not important but it doesn't make it so.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It is important owing to Putin's professed paranoia about NATO. Norway is one of just two NATO countries that have a border with Russia, the other being Turkey.

You can keep saying it is not important but it doesn't make it so.

Why are you discounting Estonia and Latvia?

 

[GlennB]

It is important owing to Putin's professed paranoia about NATO. Norway is one of just two NATO countries that have a border with Russia, the other being Turkey.

You can keep saying it is not important but it doesn't make it so.

He didn't and hasn't, his comment was clearly about the size of the border.

 

[The Don]

Why are you discounting Estonia and Latvia?

And Lithuania ?

And Poland (Kaliningrad)

 

[phiwum]

It is important owing to Putin's professed paranoia about NATO. Norway is one of just two NATO countries that have a border with Russia, the other being Turkey.

You can keep saying it is not important but it doesn't make it so.

There, there, Vixen. That mean ol' man shouldn't have said something so scurrilous as he did. Just because the border happens to be short is no reason to say so.

There, there.

 

[erwinl]

It is important owing to Putin's professed paranoia about NATO. Norway is one of just two NATO countries that have a border with Russia, the other being Turkey.

You can keep saying it is not important but it doesn't make it so.

Is there nothing you can't be wrong about?

NATO countries bordering Russian territory.

Poland.
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Norway.

Turkey not, because there is that little matter of Georgia in between.

I will discount the USA, because, though the USA certainly is in NATO, the Pacific is not a part of the NATO treaty. Although I suspect that will not matter, should Russia ever try to attack through Alaska.
Oh fine. We can add the USA after all.

 

[Vixen]

Why are you discounting Estonia and Latvia?

I pointed out Norway because Captain_Swoop omitted it from his list. Then he said it wasn't important but it was the amongst the founder 12 of NATO, together with its border with being in a sensitive area. Captain_Swoop claims this didn't matter as it was 'tiny'. I was merely correcting him because as you know, the Germans used the route via Murmansk as part of Operation Barbarossa so Putin will be in no doubt about the vulnerability of the Norwegian border, especially given its wartime history and Norway's membership of NATO.

That is all. I was correcting a misapprehension that the Norway border with Russia is of little consequence and that it need not be mentioned as it is 'tiny'. Far from it.

 

[Vixen]

Is there nothing you can't be wrong about?

NATO countries bordering Russian territory.

Poland.
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Norway.

Turkey not, because there is that little matter of Georgia in between.

I will discount the USA, because, though the USA certainly is in NATO, the Pacific is not a part of the NATO treaty. Although I suspect that will not matter, should Russia ever try to attack through Alaska.
Oh fine. We can add the USA after all.

Correction of your post: Turkey has a maritime border with Russia, and a very important one given that it is part of the Black Sea.

 

[The Don]

He didn't and hasn't, his comment was clearly about the size of the border.

Exactly, and as a consequence, the size of the force needed to defend it.

 

[Vixen]

Exactly, and as a consequence, the size of the force needed to defend it.

Only if you believe there is line of soldiers all long the borders.

 

[erwinl]

Correction of your post: Turkey has a maritime border with Russia, and a very important one given that it is part of the Black Sea.

Yes and so do Germany and Denmark. A very important one (or two in this case) given that it is part of the Baltic Sea.

 

[The Don]

Only if you believe there is line of soldiers all long the borders.

Do you think that Norway presents a threat to the territorial integrity of Russia ?

Why should that border require more personnel per kilometre to defend than other borders ?

 

[Jimbo07]

Only if you believe there is line of soldiers all long the borders.

This. In modern conflict, there's almost no relation between the length of a border and the number of soldiers/police/border services/etc. to patrol it.

Does the UK station troops at mileposts all around the periphery of the islands?

 

[lobosrul5]

Indeed,

This is not Hearts of Iron, where you can concentrate all your forces on a single front and can leave the rest of your borders completely open, safe in the knowledge that the neighbors will never do anything to you.

Ohh boy, I have been burned badly by doing just that in hoi4 multiplayer.