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Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.

Originally Posted by EHocking
(snip) Crowlogic's claim was the the sighting of the BF creature was being built , so this document doesn't cover the period of Crowlogic's claim. He cites a biologist's account (John Perry?) but hasn't cited a source of the quote that I've seen.

(snip)


Spektator said:
I know that, but I was going with the research materials we had at hand. I read through a history of Fort Ticonderoga last night. My report:

Sasquatches at Fort Ticonderoga?<snip good stuff>
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Understood you were just being thorough.
*I* didn't want to be responsible for you scanning through all of that for no reason.

Oh and also got pointed to a Perry web page article. No bibliography to back his quotes either. Unless I missed something, which is entirely possible as I only cruise the BF threads and am not going to try to catch up on the longer ones.
 
kitakaze said:
He is, you are, I am, and so is everybody currently inhaling and exhaling.



Relevant. Hilarious and relevant.



I chocolate Wednesday finger manager it kiwi.
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You obviously don't understand the use of the word contemporary. That's understandable.

Is that it for your further research into dzonokwa and bukwus. What about baxbaxwalanuksiwe? Speaking of research
 
Correa, the blog page works for me.

Coleman has his hands full because the topic is about religion. Nothing his says will change how people deal with that subject. The responses are quite interesting and revealing of those who post on his blog. Even if you put the religion aspect aside, you can still see the crazy 'cryptozoologists' with their crazy fantasies in full display.
 
Originally Posted by manofthesea
Are you a contemporary of Loren Coleman?
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Kitikaze:He is, you are, I am, and so is everybody currently inhaling and exhaling.
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manofthesea said:
You obviously don't understand the use of the word contemporary. That's understandable.
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Actually, if you look it up in a dictionary, Kitikaze has demonstrated that he has a better grasp of the meaning of the word than you do.
Is that it for your further research into dzonokwa and bukwus.
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What more is needed? Kitikaze has identified that the people who's legends they are identify them as spirits/gods rather than physical beings, and then, as singular entities not as a group of beings/animals/BF.
I think it's sufficient.[/quote]Kitikaze's summary of these being mythicala
What about baxbaxwalanuksiwe? Speaking of research
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Yet another singular entity, which, according to the legend, is extinct anyway.
...baxbaxwalanuksiwe, a man-eating giant with four terrible man-eating birds for his companions. In short the men are able to destroy the man-eating giant and gain mystical power and supernatural treasures from him."
 
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EHocking beat me to it but I'll underscore what he's already posted.
manofthesea said:
You obviously don't understand the use of the word contemporary. That's understandable.
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I would really appreciate it if you would enlighten me. See, the thing is that I have a rather Tolkien-esque interest in languages and words and their meanings. That's why I really like this forum. It keeps me sharp when I speak and am surrounded by Japanese on my day to day basis. There's a lot of very intelligent people around to learn from also. Also, I always keep an Obunsha's Epoch English-Japanese Japanese-English dictionary by the computer for whenever I get can't remember the correct definition or spelling of a word.

Anyway, I see a word like 'contemporary' and the first thing I think of are words like 'temporary' or 'temporal'. I think of the Latin 'tempus' for time and the prefix 'com' such as you see in 'communication' or 'community' which one could think of as intimating 'together', I believe. It leads me to quickly recognize that 'contempory' is an adjective and a noun that connotates 'being of the same time'. I believe this can be used for people, things, and events. If you know of another commonly accepted use of the word 'contemporary' then please tell me.





manofthesea said:
Is that it for your further research into dzonokwa and bukwus. What about baxbaxwalanuksiwe? Speaking of research
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As I said, EHocking got to it before I did but it does bring up some interesting mythology and the always fun subject of cannibalism (specifically in the Pacific NorthWest). BTW, are you aware of bigfooters contending baxbaxwalanuksiwe as a correlary of bigfoot or was that just your suggestion? I know you think wikipedia is for kids but:

Hamatsa
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Hamatsa is the name of a Kwakwaka'wakw secret society. During the winter months the Kwakwaka'wakw of British Columbia have many ceremonials practiced by different secret societies. The Hamatsa society is the most prestigious of all. It is often called a "cannibal" ritual, and some debate has arisen as to whether the Kwakwaka'wakw do or do not practice ritual cannibalism, whether their "cannibalism" is purely symbolic, or actually literal. Because of the secret nature of the society the answer is not forthcoming.

Central to the Hamatsa ceremonies is the story of some brothers who got lost on a hunting trip and found a strange house with red smoke emanating from its roof. When they visited the house they found its owner gone, but one of the house posts was a living woman with her legs rooted into the floor, and she warned them about the frightful owner of the house, who was named Baxbaxwalanuksiwe, a man-eating giant with four terrible man-eating birds for his companions. In short the men are able to destroy the man-eating giant and gain mystical power and supernatural treasures from him.

In practice the Hamatsa initiate, almost always a young man, is abducted by members of the Hamatsa society and kept in the forest in a secret location where he is instructed in the mysteries of the society. Then at a winter dance festival to which many clans and neighboring tribes are invited the spirit of the man-eating giant is evoked and the initiate is brought in wearing spruce bows and gnashing his teeth and even biting members of the audience. Many dances ensue, as the tale of Baxbaxwalanuksiwe is recounted, and all of the giant man-eating birds dance around the fire.

Finally the society members succeed in taming the new "cannibal" initiate. In the process of the ceremonies what seems to be human flesh is eaten by the initiates. All persons who were bitten during the proceedings are gifted with expensive presents, and many gifts are given to all of the witnesses who are required to recall through their gifts the honors bestowed on the new initiate and recognize his station within the spiritual community of the clan and tribe.





Bibliography
The mouth of heaven: An introduction to Kwakiutl religious thought by Irving Goldman

Hamatsa: The Enigma of Cannibalism on the Pacific Northwest Coast by Jim McDowell

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamatsa"
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No bigfoot there. Now to reiterate about dsonoqua and bukwus.

Bukwus:

Bakwas is king of the ghosts. He is a small green spirit whose face looks emaciated like a skeleton, but has a long curving nose. He haunts the forests and tries to bring the living over to the world of the dead.
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Dsonoqua:

In Kwakwaka'wakw mythology Dzunukwa is the "wild woman of the forest". She is an ancestor of the Namgis clan through her son, Tsilwalagame. She is venerated as a bringer of wealth, but is also greatly feared by children, because she is also known as an ogress who steals children and carries them home in her basket to eat.
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What would be helpful for proponents of the dsonoqua=bigfoot idea is if we could find maybe something like a historical record from traders or the like meeting with the Kwakiutl and being told something to the effect of "Please mind the dsonoquas. They live in the surrounding area and are a race of hairy giants that often harrass us and take our kids. BTW, does that boom-stick of yours work on dsonoquas and maybe also bukwus?"

manofthesea said:
Evasion noted.
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You're being weird and quoting yourself again. See, it's Saturday on my side of the planet. As much as I enjoy this forum, I do have a life with commitments. If you are presenting me with a question that I continually and conspicuously avoid answering while continuing to post in the thread where the question was presented then I believe you could characterize that as 'evasion'. You do understand the use of the word 'evasion', don't you?
 
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I've never edited a wikipedia article before but the entry on Kwakwaka'wakw (Kwakiutl) mythology needs some editing. Yes, MOTS, I know wikipedia is not perfect.

Dzunukwa (Tsonokwa) is a type of cannibal giant (called sasquatch by other Northwest Coast tribes) and comes in both male and female forms. In most legends, the female form is the most commonly told; she eats children and cries "hu-hu!" to attract them, she imitates the child's grandmother's voice. Children frequently outwit her and sometimes killing her and taking her treasures without being eaten.
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It would certainly pass unnoticed by the casual observer but that is very erroneous statement.
 
RayG said:
Outwitting and killing a sasquatch is so easy even a child could do it?

RayG
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That may just be the clue all the BF-hunters have been waiting for!
No need for dogs, game-cams and other gear, just bring a child! :D

If Creekfreak see this: I'm only joking!
 
kitakaze said:
I've never edited a wikipedia article before but the entry on Kwakwaka'wakw (Kwakiutl) mythology needs some editing. Yes, MOTS, I know wikipedia is not perfect.

It would certainly pass unnoticed by the casual observer but that is very erroneous statement.
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... and the sasquatch entry has the BFRO misquote of Goodall saying she is sure they exist.
 
kitakaze said:
EHocking beat me to it but I'll underscore what he's already posted.
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"Baxbaxwalanuksiwe, a man eating giant" is in your quotes. What else do you need? Where does it point out that bigfooters point to this figure? I've seen no mention of this name at BFF since I started frequenting there since May 2007.

You like to use 'blanket statements'. But you did not use baxbaxwalanuksiwe in your OP, did you? I found that term in 'Indians' by William Brandon. Now you're saying bigfooters believe it to be him. What makes you say that? What obscure reference are you now trying to apply to all of bigfootdom?
 
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You need an ally? Perhaps German?

It's a shame that the brightest skeptic here, in my opinion, needs an english dictionary. But hey, this isn't about world domination, is it?

You see, this isn't like the search for Eldorado, "just over the next hill" hehe.
This is about a creature that many people have witnessed. And debating it's historical or mythological name isn't going to prove or disprove it's existence. (grasping for the wind)
But I lean towards baxbaxwalanuksiwe. Interestingly, I nicknamed by son Boks about 20 years ago when he was just a child.

I do not have one single 'bigfoot' book. I had the encounters as a child. I do however, have books dealing with various 'americana' subjects. Like indians, hawaiians, religion, mlk, and literature. A brief look through a couple of my indian books led me to baxbaxwalanuksiwe.
It was that simple. William Brandon referenced a 'secret society' that revered the man eater, cannibal. It was really that obvious. Are you telling me that this society has still not been fully uncovered? We know about the illuminati, freemasons, good 'ole boys, but not the Cannibal Society.
 
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manofthesea said:
Read his whole post. 'She' is not sasquatch. And I don't think it was referring to today's dough boy generation.
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My reading is fine. Since you don't have any bigfoot books, how can you be certain she's not a sasquatch? Did you miss the "called sasquatch by other Northwest Coast tribes" part that was highlighted by kitakaze? If not a sasquatch, then what?

The Dzoonokwa - Dzonokwa - Tsonokwa - Dzunukwa, was supposedly a giant, black, fur-covered critter with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair, that walked upright and was constantly on the lookout for misbehaving children to stuff in a basket, which she carried on her big hairy back.

Certainly seems to describe a sasquatch.

Just how many giant, black, fur-covered critters with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair are there roaming the woods anyway?

RayG
 
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Who Needs Books?

RayG said:
My reading is fine. Since you don't have any bigfoot books, how can you be certain she's not a sasquatch? Did you miss the "called sasquatch by other Northwest Coast tribes" part that was highlighted by kitakaze? If not a sasquatch, then what?

The Dzoonokwa - Dzonokwa - Tsonokwa - Dzunukwa, was supposedly a giant, black, fur-covered critter with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair, that walked upright and was constantly on the lookout for misbehaving children to stuff in a basket, which she carried on her big hairy back.

Certainly seems to describe a sasquatch.

Just how many giant, black, fur-covered critters with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair are there roaming the woods anyway?

RayG
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That's terrific. We're getting somewhere now. I'll save this post.

But I am now looking at picking up a few bigfoot books. Any recommendations. My first choice is Raincoast Sasquatch.
 
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manofthesea said:
That's terrific. We're getting somewhere now. I'll save this post.
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If you don't mind speculating, can you have a quick gander at the two questions I posed? They were:

If not a sasquatch, then what?

Just how many giant, black, fur-covered critters with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair are there roaming the woods anyway?


But I am now looking at picking up a few bigfoot books. Any recommendations. My first choice is Raincoast Sasquatch.
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The three I reach for most often are Big Footprints, by Grover Krantz; Sasquatch: The Apes Among Us, by John Green; and Bigfoot Exposed: An Anthropologist Examines America's Enduring Legend, by David Daegling.

RayG
 
RayG said:
If you don't mind speculating, can you have a quick gander at the two questions I posed? They were:

If not a sasquatch, then what?

Just how many giant, black, fur-covered critters with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair are there roaming the woods anyway?


The three I reach for most often are Big Footprints, by Grover Krantz; Sasquatch: The Apes Among Us, by John Green; and Bigfoot Exposed: An Anthropologist Examines America's Enduring Legend, by David Daegling.

RayG
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Concerning the first, I am under the presumption that sasquatch was referred to as 'Cannibal (Maneater) at the North End of the World' translated as Baxbaxwalanuksiwe. I saw mention of "helper birds (types?)" and presumed dzonokwa to be one of these. This book, Indians, is a "one volume account of the American Indians" and did not get into detailed, individual tribal beliefs. I was wrong, concerning the word dzonokwa, being that dzonokwa and bukwu are the common terms used. (male and female?) Hence the desire to acquire Raincoast Sasquatch. My book collection is mostly reference material, without detailed modern usages of the words used.

As far as their number and distribution, I suspect their population to be small. As far as distribution and the related sightings nationwide, there could be a number of various reasons. Though, if they are 'human', they could very well be aware of periods when it would be safe to be in certain areas, perhaps relative to hunting seasons, reintroduction of certain predator species, disease, etc.

I'll be sure to look for those particular books.
 
Concerning Northwest Tribal Myths

I think that it is very important to understand that when dealing with tribal stories from the Pacific Northwest and Alaska, that these tribes have mostly remained intact and inhabit the same locations 'they always have'. These tribes mostly have not been relocated and mixed with other tribes. So, their stories and myths may be more precise when dealing with certain subjects.
 
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