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Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.

I was in the library as soon as it opened this morning and have spent nearly an hour and a half looking at microfiche of the Journals of each Provincial Congress of Massachusetts, 1774-1775. They contain a description of Fort Ticonderoga, an assessment of its strategic value, and an account of Ethan Allen and Benedict Arnold's capture of the fort, but nary a word about bigfoot or sasquatches, so far as I can tell (the whole is 778 pages, but I read only the passages relevant to Ticonderoga). I have ordered two histories of the fort, so when they come in, I'll check for bigfoot prints.

By the way, we also have a book called Reason the Only Oracle of Man by Ethan Allen himself. He takes a deist's view of religion and argues that miracles are logically impossible and should be regarded with a skeptical eye. Not really germane, but again no mention of bigfeet, apes, or sasquatches (though it's clear Allen would argue against their being paranormal, as he does not believe in the paranormal).

Edited to add: It would really help if we had a source for the Fort Ticonderoga/bigfoot story. Where is it from?
 
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One of the first prime examples that I was thinking of looking at is one that I have seen put forward by bigfoot enthusiasts countless time is Dsonoqua, The Wild Woman of the Woods. A classic boogeyman type figure, she is a mythical being of the Kwakiutl people of the northern tip of Vancouver Island and the adjacent BC coast who is said to be a stealer of children.

I think what you have here is the classic case of footers highjacking a native myth and trying to wrench it into bigfoot evidence. It seems clear from all that I've seen so far that dsonoqua was held by the Kwakiutl to be a boogeyman type figure and not the representation of a species of 8ft giant bipedal primate that they shared their land with. I will look further into this.

I went upstairs this morning to take a look at a few of my indian books.
Applying my own experience, my mother's (Gwich'n) denial of sasquatch in the Alaskan Interior, and the few books I have here is my opinion.
I lean towards the Dzonokwa of the Kwakiutl. The book where I found reference was Indians by William Brandon, but he used the term Cannibal at the North End of the World. It was referencing a society of Kwakiutl that were dancing for a 'naked worman'. They would fast until emaciated, then reappear wild and hungry, and eat a type of meat representing flesh.
 
I was in the library as soon as it opened this morning and have spent nearly an hour and a half looking at microfiche of the Journals of each Provincial Congress of Massachusetts, 1774-1775. ...
I think I've found this in PDF form as an eBook:

http://www.archive.org/details/journalsofeachpr00massuoft

It may be easier to search in this format?
ETA: The entire PDF is searchable.

ETA: Excellent posts Kitakaze. Entertaining as well as informative reading.
 
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I think I've found this in PDF form as an eBook:

http://www.archive.org/details/journalsofeachpr00massuoft

It may be easier to search in this format?
ETA: The entire PDF is searchable.

ETA: Excellent posts Kitakaze. Entertaining as well as informative reading.

Yes, same document! Thank you very much. As well as being readily searchable, this version is actually much easier on the eyes than the microform in our library, too.

The account of the fall of Fort Ticonderoga (which I had read in our library, too) is on pages 234-235, extracted from a report given by Benedict Arnold (at that time still fighting on the American side). A recap of the report is on page 239. The fort is referenced again on page 250; on pages 258-259 an account of the fort's supplies and armament is summarized.

Further mentions: the fort's supplies are referenced again on page 263, together with a note on the importance of maintaining the fort; on 264-269 is a copy of a letter to Arnold saying that Col. Joseph Henshaw has been sent to secure and maintain the fort, with attached remarks on the strategic importance of Ticonderoga; on 281 and 287, passing references to the fort, along with a letter directing Arnold to continue in command of the fortess until further notice; on 288, Arnold's reply; on 290 and 293 a committee to oversee the expenses of supplying Ticonderoga is mentioned. Then on 296 time is set aside for Henshaw to deliver his report on securing and maintaining the fortress; on 310 notice is taken of pork sent to the fort as rations; on 321-322 and 324-325 a committee is created to survey the physical structure of the fort and a resolution affirming its strategic importance is passed; on 327-329 the committee reports. On 331 a horse is requisitioned so Mr. Sullivan can travel to the fortress. On 332, a payment of four hundred pounds to the inspecting committee is authorized, so they can pay the soldiers occupying the fort; they themselves get an advance of twenty pounds against their expenses. On 372, in a footnote, Ticonderoga is quiet with no enemies in sight. Pages 409-410 contain an account of the Battle of Bunker Hill (not called that, since it was not actually fought on the hill) and mentions in passing that Ticonderoga is exposed to possible enemy action. On 461 the Ticonderoga survey committee is thanked and commended; on 462 and 464-465, their report is considered. On 468-469, the four hundred pounds to pay the soldiers is not forthcoming because the treasury is low; but on 490, an officer is granted 100 pounds in payment for his services under Arnold. 501 has another request for money to pay the soldiers, this time 1200 pounds. On 529 is an inventory of weapons in the fort. Page 521 goes back to before Arnold's and Allen's taking of the fort and reproduces a letter authorizing their expedition. On 534 is the text of the order designating Arnold as the commander of the captured fort. Pages 635-724 record letters and other documents dealing specifically with the assault on and capture of the fort and its manning by American forces (the section I read in our library). Thereafter, only incidental mentions of the fortress. Indians are mentioned on sixty pages, never in conjunction with any legends or stories of man-like beasts (usually the Committee for Public Safety is concerned to maintain good relations with them; at one point, Arnold asks for reinforcements, fearing an assault by British regulars supported by Native Americans).

I can find no mention of monstrous human-like creatures.
 
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I was in the library as soon as it opened this morning and have spent nearly an hour and a half looking at microfiche of the Journals of each Provincial Congress of Massachusetts, 1774-1775.

I can find no mention of monstrous human-like creatures.
Thank you very much for your time and effort, Spektator. It is most appreciated. I don't know how they missed the bigfoots.
 
Perhaps you should be looking for a page of yellow legal paper...
http://72.32.2.238/forumlive/showpost.php?p=2467146&postcount=3517

Thanks, Orthoptera. I appreciate those who (a year ago!) pointed out the difficulty of Putnam's being a part of THAT particular incident, since he wasn't in the neighborhood at the time! Now, the original claim was that when Fort Ticonderoga was first built, the European builders encountered harassment from bigfeet, or bigfeetoids, or reasonable facsimiles thereof. The Revolutionary records don't go back that far, of course, so I've ordered some histories of the fortifications in Ticonderoga/Crown Point. And I don't know from the original claim if the initial builders were the French, who erected Fort Carillon and some outlying fortifications, or the British. Moreover, I don't know the source of the claim--a poster just said it happened without citing a reference. That makes research harder, but more interesting, I suppose.
 
And the weird gets weirder. Just a little addendum on native myth bigfoot guru guy Henry Franzoni. I was searching his name for some pictures of him with Jon-Erik Beckjord (the paranormal bigfoot nutjob that just got banned from here for the 42nd time) when I noticed a BFRO listing that didn't show his name in bold. I gave it a click and what did I find?:

Report # 657 (Class B)
Submitted by witness Henry Franzoni (caveman@teleport.com) on Friday, January 05, 1996.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A man and woman report smelling a strange, powerful odor while on a forest road late at night
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(Show Printer-friendly Version)
YEAR: 1993

SEASON: Summer

MONTH: August

DATE: 2

STATE: Oregon

COUNTY: Clackamas County

LOCATION DETAILS: Near Skookum Lake, near FS road 54

NEAREST ROAD: FS road 54

OBSERVED: We, my girlfriend and I, smelled an indescribable smell high in the Cascade Mountains. This occured at 1:00am-2:00am

There were two witnesses, my girlfriend and myself.

My girlfriend fell asleep for 30 minutes upon smelling the smell. It could have been fright, it could have been something else.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Follow-up investigation report:

The place name "Skookum" is one of several American Indian words for Bigfoot.

From the Western Bigfoot Society public reports page.
"I heard this terrible sound, like someone stepping on a duck, and then my eyes started to burn real bad."

Wicked fart? That's Class B.

Oh yeah, skookum means bigfoot like munchkin means orang pendek.
 
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Thanks, kitakaze, for that nose-witness report!

One of the histories of Ticonderoga (the collection of primary documents) came in this afternoon. I have time tonight to read through the relevant chapters regarding the fort's construction. I'll see what I can find.
 
Kit,

Good thread and it got me thinking. I had brief recollections of research I did on Omah back in the 80’s and I found some notes that I had taken from a book titled “To the American Indian” by Lucy Thompson. Thompson was a Klamath/Yurok, Talth/Chief/Spirtual Leader who saw her people’s history being misrepresented by the white mans history books. She figured she needed to write a book about the way it was before all recollection was lost. To the American Indian was written in 1916.

I was going to babble using my notes, but der, there is this thing called the internet now and by golly look at what I found. Some of the pages are missing but I think you’re all intelligent enough to figure it out. You can really see the difference between her referencing Oh-Mah-Hah and say Thomas Buckley.

http://books.google.com/books?id=o5...5mc&sig=HAaloeo0EDl8jF-h7j0Ojl6VOEs#PPA185,M1

After The Wild Indian of Mo-reck back pedal up to page 170 for most of the Romance of a Wild Indian.



m
 
Biologist John Perry writes....

"For example, the area along the border of Vermont and New York, roughly between Albany north to Crown Point on Lake Champlain, has had sightings dating back to the French and Indian Wars up to the present."

Crown Point is close enough to Fort Ticonderoga that if Fort Ticonderoga sneezes Crown Point gets a cold. However said creatures were conspiciously absent while I was dispatched to that area.
 
I was searching his name for some pictures of him with Jon-Erik Beckjord (the paranormal bigfoot nutjob that just got banned from here for the 42nd time)

IMG_3479.jpg


Later, dude...
 
Yes, same document! Thank you very much. As well as being readily searchable, this version is actually much easier on the eyes than the microform in our library, too.
<snip summary>
I can find no mention of monstrous human-like creatures.
While I was googling for this and then reading it, I found that the fort was built from 1755-58.

Crowlogic's claim was the the sighting of the BF creature was being built
In the mid 1700's when soldiers and engineers were sent to construct the fort along the Hudson River they reported seeing large ape like creatures in the area.
, so this document doesn't cover the period of Crowlogic's claim. He cites a biologist's account (John Perry?) but hasn't cited a source of the quote that I've seen.

Sorry I was late in noticing that point.

ETA: Sorry I was late in noticing that the discussion had progressed while typing my reply!
 
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Biologist John Perry writes....

"For example, the area along the border of Vermont and New York, roughly between Albany north to Crown Point on Lake Champlain, has had sightings dating back to the French and Indian Wars up to the present."
Do you have a source for this quote? Paper? Book? Interview? Blog?
 
(snip) Crowlogic's claim was the the sighting of the BF creature was being built , so this document doesn't cover the period of Crowlogic's claim. He cites a biologist's account (John Perry?) but hasn't cited a source of the quote that I've seen.

(snip)

I know that, but I was going with the research materials we had at hand. I read through a history of Fort Ticonderoga last night. My report:

Sasquatches at Fort Ticonderoga?

The first of the two books that I ordered through Interlibrary Loan came in:

Pell, S.H.P., ed. Fort Ticonderoga: A Short History, Compiled from Contemporary Sources. Rpt. Fort Ticonderoga Museum, 1975.

Chapter 1 covers “The Aborigines” and has no mention of Sasquatch or anything like it.

Chapter 2 is “Champlain” and includes Champlain’s description of the countryside, including the flora and fauna; no mention of a Sasquatch. Then Chapters three, four, five, and six cover the building of the fort and the period up to the Revolutionary War. Here we go:

In 1755 Michel Chartier (later Marquis de Lotbiniere), at the direction of the Marquis de Vandreuil, the Governor-General of New France, explored the vicinity to establish a new fort. The third chapter consists of Chartier’s reports back to Vandreuil. He determined to establish the new fort near Mount Pelee (today Mount Defiance). In October, 1755, in charge of a work force of 2000 French soldiers, Chartier cleared land, felled trees, dug entrenchments, and began to erect the fort. Plans called for a stone edifice, but lacking masons and equipment, Chartier first built using native oak. His account talks of the problems and challenges the soldiers faced, notes how rapidly the basic structure went up, and nowhere mentions either Native Americans or Sasquatches.

Indeed, according to this record the most irritating interruption came from Robert Rogers, leaders of Rogers’ Rangers, who on behalf of the British scouted and spied on the fort and raided the cattle owned by the French.

Chartier complains that when cold weather came, the bulk of the soldiers left the fort and returned to Crown Point; the remaining garrison of soldiers refused to work in the cold, and lacking military rank, Chartier could not compel them to work. He left in February, 1756, wintering in Montreal, but returned later that spring and resumed operations. The fort was strengthened and work began on stone structures (the first of these being two garrisons inside the walls). In 1756, Chartier rechristened the fort; it had been Fort Vandreuil, but because the sound of waterfalls reminded Chartier of the sounds of bells in the distance, he renamed it Fort Carillon. Work went on during the warmer months of 1756 and 1757 with few interruptions; ground was cleared around the fort to accommodate tent space for an army of 3,000 men during this time, should the occasion arise.

Again, no mention of Sasquatches.

In 1758, by which time the fort was almost complete, the British general Abercromby dispatched a large force to take the French fort, under the command of George Augustus, Viscount Howe. The Native American allies of the French harried the British, and the French attacked before they could besiege the fort, killing Lord Howe in the first assault. The British retreated in disorder. The book includes a report on the debacle by Howe’s aide, Captain Monypenny. Both French and British descriptions of the fighting are included. No Sasquatches.

In 1759, however, British General Jeffrey Amherst led another British force, and this time they took the fort, which they renamed Ticonderoga. The French defenders, in a last-ditch effort, set fire to the wooden structures of the fort, but the British salvaged an impressive number of cannon, and in a report on the action, the British Eli Forbush describes the action and tells how the British began to repair the fortifications.

No Sasquatches.

The accounts are pretty circumstantial, but of course the only thing I can really report is that none of them anywhere mention man-like creatures or Native legends about such beings.

ETA: There's this: http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach...quatch++"john+perry"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

...but that isn't much to go on.
 
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