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Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.

Crow Logic is the consumate bigfoot enthusiast when found to be perpetuating PGF stinkers. 'Well, the facts are unknowable so we're all the same.' CL isn't ready for Thunderdome.

Kitakaze,

Perhaps you should read some of my posts at BBF. You'd soon discover that I take the stand of benign skeptic. But I'm also a skeptic who is skeptical of other skeptics. By that I mean truth is an absoloute. It is equally ignorant to believe something wrongly as it is to disbelieve something wrongly.
 
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Crow Logic is the consumate bigfoot enthusiast when found to be perpetuating PGF stinkers. 'Well, the facts are unknowable so we're all the same.' CL isn't ready for Thunderdome.

Kitakaze,

Perhaps you should read some of my posts at BBF. You'd soon discover that I take the stand of benign skeptic. But I'm also a skeptic who is skeptical of other skeptics. By that I mean truth is an absoloute. It is equally ignorant to believe something wrongly as it is to disbelieve something wrongly.
 
There is something very strange about you, Crowlogic. You keep double-posting in the Bigfoot threads. Do you notice it, or care?
 
Crowlogic said:
Crow Logic is the consumate bigfoot enthusiast when found to be perpetuating PGF stinkers. 'Well, the facts are unknowable so we're all the same.' CL isn't ready for Thunderdome.

Kitakaze,

Perhaps you should read some of my posts at BBF. You'd soon discover that I take the stand of benign skeptic. But I'm also a skeptic who is skeptical of other skeptics. By that I mean truth is an absoloute. It is equally ignorant to believe something wrongly as it is to disbelieve something wrongly.
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Sprechen zi what? I've seen Creekfreak put together more coherent posts.
 
It would be nice if a particular 'expert' would come on this forum. I'm referring to J. Carter. (I realise HairyMan occasionally posts here, but in fairness, she has a book coming out) One thing I'll point out, my mother grew up somewhat traditional in Rampart, Alaska and was her grandmother's fave. Recently, when I showed her a newsletter stating the name of our tribe, she didn't recognise it. I showed her the word Gwichn (sp), she looked at me and said it was pronounced "Gnich". She probably wasn't privy to textbooks showing proper spelling while growing up.
 
manofthesea said:
It would be nice if a particular 'expert' would come on this forum. I'm referring to J. Carter. (I realise HairyMan occasionally posts here, but in fairness, she has a book coming out).
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I won't bother to speculate if Kathy has seen this thread or not. However, I'm pretty certain her forth coming book wouldn't keep her from participating. Here's her last comments on it here:

Hairy Man said:
No really, it's coming out!! We've just been delayed due to the amount of historic photos and their color bleeding into the text. It should be out this spring.
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Now, for whatever do you think Janice Carter Coy would bring to the discussion?


manofthesea said:
One thing I'll point out, my mother grew up somewhat traditional in Rampart, Alaska and was her grandmother's fave. Recently, when I showed her a newsletter stating the name of our tribe, she didn't recognise it. I showed her the word Gwichn (sp), she looked at me and said it was pronounced "Gnich". She probably wasn't privy to textbooks showing proper spelling while growing up.
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As I said before, variations in spellings of the various names is one of the main issues when researching the subject. It has been an issue of contention before, as was the case with 'kushtaka' the land otter man.
 
So, before I continue on examining specific alledged Native American myth/tradition bigfoot connections I thought I might take some time to have a look at some of the footers making those connections and their methodology and reasonings in doing so.

While I've already mentioned Kathy Moskowitz Strain and her involvement in the subject, it seems to be a handful of other individuals that are responsible for the majority of what one finds in print and on the internet. Henry Franzoni, Kyle Mizokami, and Jeff Glickman who are responsible for the expansive list of supposed indigenous names for bigfoot creatures I linked and quoted on the first page are some of the first names you'll come across. Bobbie Short, who runs the well known bigfoot enthusiast website Bigfoot Encounters has been closely involved in the subject and has archived much of the material pertaining to it. Then there is J. Robert Alley who has written what many footers would consider the first required reading on the subject, 'Raincoast Sasquatch'.

For this post I will focus on Henry Franzoni (Henry James Franzoni III) who has turned out to be an interesting character to say the least. As it turns out, and I can't claim to be overly surprised, Franzoni is quite the eccentric and a bigfoot paranormalist (one who doesn't believe BF is simply a flesh and blood animal). IMO, he seems to be the most lucid of the interdimensional, telepathic bigfoot fans I've come across. Apparently, he has retired from the field of bigfootery. In the PGF thread I posted this article written by him on his beliefs and experiences concerning bigfoot and bigfootery:

http://www.hdbrp.com/An Interview%...20Franzoni.htm

I have been made fun of by the bigfeet. I have walked right up to a bush with a laughing bigfoot in it, and found nothing at all there.
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It is rather lengthy but it does provide insight to his thinking and involvement in the subject. Franzoni seems to be one of those extremely eccentric people that can conjure up connections in the oddest places. His methodology in drawing correlations between native myths and traditions and bigfoot is spelled out in this article by self-proclaimed 'World's Greatest Living Cryptozoologist' Loren Coleman on what Franzoni calls 'The Name Game':

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/henry.htm

I have enjoyed playing the name game for decades, and thank the readers who have asked to hear more about this. The name game is a recreational activity that anyone can engage in from the comfort of their home, driving around town, or while on vacation. All you need, usually, is a map and a curious mind. Pick a location that has an intriguingly interesting sounding moniker (perhaps one of the many I¹ll mention in this column) and see if you can discover the strange story, bizarre encounter, or weird sighting of a specific creature that has left its imprint on the landscape. You might have to talk to a historical museum docent, look up the name in a local book, or dig a bit, but it is a good way to begin research on a fun topic.
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He also in that article details his observations on what he believes to be specific candidates for bigfoot such as the Skookum. I will be examining that specific claim in a later post:

Henry Franzoni¹s interest in the name game goes back to his first experience with the unknown in 1993. At a place called Skookum Lake, Oregon, Franzoni and his companion encountered what he would later call the Bigfoot phenomenon. Franzoni began collecting Native tales, and started noticing the links between the name game of the locations¹ names and the sightings of the creatures. Not coincidentally, Franzoni discovered that Skookum was another name for Sasquatch or Bigfoot. He has identified 214 Skookum place names all found in Oregon, Washington State, British Columbia, Idaho, and Alaska; it being a very Pacific Northwest centric name, just like the reports of the classic Bigfoot or Sasquatch.
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To provide some further scope into Franzoni's eccentric mindset in seeking obscure connections I offer the following non-bigfoot related work of his entitled "The Ancient Secret Meaning of some of the extended ASCII characters, and beyond.":

http://www.skepticfiles.org/mys5/asciiext.htm

Below is a brief attempt to demonstrate a strange connection between the IBM PC symbol system and the hidden metaphorical secrets of the early Greek Cabalists and Christian Gnostics. Perhaps Hebrew Cabalists, Masons and other groups used similar methods. If this subject matter offends you please stop reading this file and erase it.
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I'm guessing you'll have a good five seconds looking at that before your eyes cross. Needless to say, one can see that Franzoni has a creative mind.

Finally let's have a look at his specific methodologies and reasonings behind his bigfoot correlations as shown in Jeff Glickman's pseudo-scientific NASI Report (North American Science Institute - sounds scholarly, it's woo). Informed bigfoot skeptics will immediately recognize Glickman and the NASI Report as the one that posited that the Patterson/Gimlin Film subject, Patty, weighed 2000 lbs. I will refrain from posting the section of the report pertaining to Native Americans as it is rather long:

http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/papers/nasi3.html

It will not take one long to spot the inherent problems represented in that paper regarding the interpretations of myths as evidence of bigfoot. One wonders when Glickman was citing Franzoni's work if he was aware of Franzoni's claims about having his mind touched by bigfoot.
 
I want to extend my thanks to fellow JREF member Big Les for putting material from this thread on his blog site 'The BS Historian - Sceptical Commentary on Pseudohistory and the Paranormal'.

http://bshistorian.wordpress.com/

I'm glad tha more people will be able to read about, as Big Les puts it, "using Native Americans as a human woo shield."

Cheers, Big Les. :)

KK
 
No problem kitakaze, it's good stuff. I've left links back to to thread so anyone that finds that intro to the topic can follow them back here.
 
kitakaze said:
So, before I continue on examining specific alledged Native American myth/tradition bigfoot connections I thought I might take some time to have a look at some of the footers making those connections and their methodology and reasonings in doing so.
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Some of it seems to come down to - 'if it was claimed it must be true unless you can prove otherwise'.

I posted this back in August 2007 on the BFF, and it illustrates some of the Native American thoughts and beliefs towards bigfoot. I have focused on the more mythical aspects.

Most of the Native legends I've read about describe a creature similar in appearance to that of a human (large person wearing animal skins, bipedal, etc.), but a great many of these legends also describe bigfoot as supernatural, mystical or some sort of spirit, possessing fantastic abilities or powers (shape-shifting, ability to magically transform or control the environment or objects/people around them, etc.).

The Boqs of Bella Coola, for example, used their supernatural powers to raise mountains so water would drain away, and their supernatural protection was so great it caused a hunter's musket to burst apart in his hands. (1)

To some Native tribes bigfoot is both real yet spirit... was formerly an ancient reptile... can transform into a coyote... exists in another dimension and is able to travel between dimensions... possesses powerful psychic abilities... is a messenger during evil times... or was a former human transformed into a cannibalistic monster.(2)

The Bukwas is described as a a "significant supernatural spirit being... linked with the underworld of the dead..." (3)

One bigfoot legend has them associated with magical buckskins that make the wearer invisible. (4)

In another, to even look at a bigfoot(?) is to die. (5)

Some might argue the shape-shifting Kushtaka is a bigfoot-type creature. (6)

Bigfoot not only caused a person to slip into a coma, they transferred their psychic powers to the victim, and their foul odor as well, which lasted 8 years. (7)

Roasted bigfoot anyone? (8) (While it can be argued there is no supernatural powers precribed to the bigfoot in this tale, she was at least able to cook, converse in their language, master fire, and weave a basket.)

RayG

(1) http://www.bigfootencounters.com/legends/boqs.htm
(2) http://www.bfro.net/legends/
(3) http://www.windspirit.com/jack/bukwas.html
(4) http://www.bfro.net/legends/penutian.htm
(5) http://www.bfro.net/legends/aztec.htm
(6) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushtaka
(7) http://www.bigfootencounters.com/legends/kitimaat.htm
(8) http://www.bigfootencounters.com/legends/ogress.htm
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RayG
 
That's an excellent post, Ray. Thank you for putting it over here. What were the responses from footers?

The main aspect that I'm encountering when dealing with this topic is that it is just passed around, said and received wholesale as fact, with very little questioning on the matter.
 
I am moving a discussion with member Spektator instigated by a claim from member Crowlogic from the PGF thread to here where it is pertinent:

Crowlogic said:
In upper NY State there is a place named Fort Ticonderoga (sp). In the mid 1700's when soldiers and engineers were sent to construct the fort along the Hudson River they reported seeing large ape like creatures in the area. The local Indians confirmed the creatures in ways that fit what is generally accepted as Sasquatch.
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kitakaze said:
Source, please.
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Spektator said:
I can order two histories of Fort Ticonderoga (one of them compiled exclusively from contemporary materials) through interlibrary loan. I'll put in a request for them and see if they mention bigfoot.

Edited to add: Our own library has a microfilm of reports on Fort Ticonderoga from the mid-1700s. If I have time between classes tomorrow, I'll take a look at that, too.
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kitakaze said:
Spektator, if you come up with something, could you please also post it in my Native American thread?
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Spektator said:
Sure thing; that's where it belongs, after all. Good work on that thread, by the way!

To date I have read some material online about the French constructing Fort Carillon and the nearby Grenadier Redoubt from 1755-1757. In 1759 the British took the fort and soon afterward built another fortification to the north. Fort Ticonderoga had fallen into disuse and disrepair by the time of the Revolution, when the British reoccupied it. It was taken by Ethan Allen and Benedict Arnold in 1775 and thereafter occupied by the Americans.

So far the only mention of bigfoot, sasquatch, or apes that I have found in conjunction with Ticonderoga dates from a century or more before the construction of the first fort, when an account of the explorations of Samuel de Champlain unflatteringly compares the Native Americans he meets to "tawny apes."
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Champlain et le Gougou:


The Gougou (1603)


There is, moreover, a strange matter, worthy of being related, which several savages have assured me was true; namely, near the Bay of Chaleurs, towards the south, there is an island where a terrible monster resides, which the savages call Gougou, and which they told me had the form of a woman, though very frightful, and of such a size that they told me the tops of the masts of our vessel would not reach to his middle, so great do they picture him; and they say that he has often devoured and still continues to devour many savages; these he puts, when he can catch them, into a great pocket, and afterwards eats them; and those who had escaped the jaws of this wretched creature said that its pocket was so great that it could have put our vessel into it. This monster makes horrible noises in this island, which the savages call the Gougou; and when they speak of him, it is with the greatest possible fear, and several have assured me that they have seen him. Even the above-mentioned Prevert from St. Malo told me that, while going in search of mines, as mentioned in the previous chapter, he passed so near the dwelling-place of this frightful creature, that he and all those on board his vessel heard strange hissings from the noise it made, and that the savages with him told him it was the same creature, and that they were so afraid that they hid themselves wherever they could, for fear that it would come and carry them off. What makes me believe what they say is the fact that all the savages in general fear it, and tell such strange things about it that, if I were to record all they say, it would be regarded as a myth; but I hold that this is the dwelling-place of some devil that torments them in the above-mentioned manner. This is what I have learned about this Gougou.
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He was this big! I found this account while doing research for the alledged bigfoot correlary 'rugaru' at this BFF thread discussing its footiness:

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=10214
 
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I am also moving this exchange with member Crowlogic from the PGF to here where it is pertinent:

kitakaze said:
Crowlogic said:
This is amusing. And why does a skeptic have to conform to your idea of what a skeptic is? Why does anyone have to dance to your tune?
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I've noticed you DP a lot. Anyway... Crowlogic, you are simply wrong. Your self-characterization as a skeptic is a simple and poorly thought fallacy. You personalize what is not personal. A person who believes as you do that bigfoot existed, regardless of whether or not they continue to do so, in the face of a complete lack of reliable evidence to support the notion is simply not a skeptic in any sense of the word. You may wish to believe other wise but you are no less mistaken in this line of thinking. I doubt my explanation will affect that belief.

Crowlogic said:
Why do I believe that a primate once existed that in some way conforms to the description of Sasquatch. Well I don't think that the cultures that reported or had legends were all populations of abject idiots. Or to put it in simple terms where there's smoke there's fire. But fires do burn out, lines go extinct. What's so hard to believe about that?
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That, madam, is a complete and utter logical fallacy. You obviously have not read or paid attention to what many people in this thread have explained on the matter. This discussion does not belong here but rather in the Native American thread where it is central, which is where I will move it.
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In this exchange with Crowlogic she commits a variation of the very old and used "Are you calling the Native Americans liars!?" routine.

What she really needs to do regarding what she is citing as evidence for her belief that bigfoot existed is show that North American indigenous cultures actually reported seeing or had legends of bigfoot. I eagerly await this though I will not hold my breath.
 
kitakaze said:
He was this big!
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This is what fascinates me. The savages "told me had the form of a woman". Yet, from that point onwards, Gougou is described using male gender (he). The savages must have somehow known that he was a he, but indeed had the form of a woman. Dude looks like a lady.
 
Short but sweet:

On the first page I gave a link to a Monster Quest episode in which US Forest Service archaeologist Kathy Moskowitz Strain listed native names for bigfoot she had discovered. I've addressed some of them and now I'll quickly deal with the one that she pronounced as 'stemahah' or STEE-MAH-HAH.

Also from Franzoni and Glickman's bigfoot native name list:

name/tribe/translation

Seatco Yakama/Klickitat/Puyallup "Stick Indian"

From indigenouspeople.net (bolding mine):

http://www.indigenouspeople.net/yakama.htm

The Stick People
The Yakama Indians of the east slope of the Cascade Mountains of Washington State have a legend, persisting to this day, of the "Stick People" or little ones that live high in the hills. Some hills are sacred places for the Stick People and should not be trammeled. If they are visited, the Stick People will do you harm. Also, the Stick People do a lot of unprovoked mischief, such as stealing your car keys. [Stories told to me - Bruce G. Marcot, Ph.D. Research Wildlife Ecologist - during a May 1997 invited visit into the sacred Yakama forest land -- by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service biologists working closely with the Yakama Indian Nation.]
As noted by Robert Pyle,

A vast body of lore pertains to Ste-ye-hah'mah, also called Stick-shower Man or Stick Man. The Yakama word means a spirit hiding under the cover of the woods. Some say the "stick" refers to this habit, others that these creatures poke sticks into lodges to extract or harass victims, or rain sticks down upon them. In a recent Quinault story, women put out shallow baskets of salmon and other food, and See'atco takes the provender in exchange for firewood, which he places in the basket -- another "stick" connection. Some Indians consider Stick Men to be spirits whose name should not even be mentioned; Don Smith -- Lelooska -- thinks the Stick Men have merely been conflated with Bigfoot. - Robert Michael Pyle, 1995, Where Bigfoot Walks: Crossing the Dark Divide, Mariner Books, Boston, p. 133.
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Bigfoot, my bigfoot. Where is my bigfoot?
 
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