Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.

[EHocking]

OK...but doesn't that place "science" squarely in the realm of editorial writers in that they wait until the battle is over to rush down out of the hills and shoot the wounded?

After all, if science is simply proving (via repeatable and controlled systems) what has been there in front of you all along why scoff or villify what cannot presently be proven via the scientific method? How does that mindset make you any different from those that burned people at the stake simply because they didn't "understand" them...at the time?

Apparently, it takes very little courage and no heart to be a "scientist" ?

Not meant to be mean-spirited...just the Celtic & NA coming out.

I take it from all of the above, that you do not have verifiable sources to support the veracity of the BF Believer perpetuated Gorilla and Platypus stories that you repeated above?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

.............
Apparently, it takes very little courage and no heart to be a "scientist" ?

Not meant to be mean-spirited...just the Celtic & NA coming out.

Doesn't sound mean spirited to me... Does sound a bit ignorant though..

What does courage and heart have to do with it ?

Like John Park said, ( paraphrase ) " It's not enough to wear the mantle of Galileo, you also have to be right ... "

 

[Telaynay's G'son]

Doesn't sound mean spirited to me... Does sound a bit ignorant though..

What does courage and heart have to do with it ?

The courage to admit there may be things that await a scientific explanation and absent that event the recognition such a possibility may exist. IMO, it isn't about being some form of a "true believer" rather, utilizing common sense. Any lack of deference to the religion of science seems to be where some people get very defensive and I find that rather ignorant.

Like John Park said, ( paraphrase ) " It's not enough to wear the mantle of Galileo, you also have to be right ... "

Denying something simply because science has not yet defined it and basing that position upon a lack of current evidence being furnished by the legions of non-scientists appears to be the default position. Yet, it ignores the possibility such may exist in which event you risk being wrong and thus losing the mantle?

 

[Correa Neto]

OK, lets change shift our paradigms. From now on, the quality of the evidence for bigfeet being real is good. Now, since its of the same caliber of evidence for UFOs, ghosts, chupacabras, Jesus, Mary and the saints, werewolves, witches, gnomes, elves, fairies, etc., then all these are from now on proclaimed to be real.

Good, eh?

In case you haven't noticed, the default position here actually is something like "there are no reliable evidences to back the claim bigfeet are real". We are not "denying something". Want to put your money on bigfoot or ghost research? OK, its your money. Want me to put my money? Convince me its worthy.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

The courage to admit there may be things that await a scientific explanation and absent that event the recognition such a possibility may exist. IMO, it isn't about being some form of a "true believer" rather, utilizing common sense. Any lack of deference to the religion of science seems to be where some people get very defensive and I find that rather ignorant.

It is quite clear who is being defensive, and it is not those who are simply asking for a bit of tangible evidence that something like Bigfoot actually exists...

Where has anyone here proclaimed there is nothing awaiting scientific explanation.

Quite the contrary ... Waiting.... Waiting... Waiting ..

Denying something simply because science has not yet defined it and basing that position upon a lack of current evidence being furnished by the legions of non-scientists appears to be the default position. Yet, it ignores the possibility such may exist in which event you risk being wrong and thus losing the mantle?

You have to have it, before you can lose it...

 

[kitakaze]

I can guarantee that I am not this Neal character. I'm a 57 year old woman, living in Illinois.

As for giving you all proof, read your history of the planet. I'm not doing your job for you, and I sure as hell can't post it all in here! It would probably equal 27 books!!!

I'm done in here, still looking for signs of intelligence on earth! You'll grow up some year, I'm sure.

Tianca

Oh jeez, that's unfortunate and maybe for us also. You know, the JREF is a rather sizable community and what I would consider an excellent resource. If there really are psychic alien interdimensional Bigfoots in spaceships around the Earth recycling bodies and abducting human females for mating purposes then frankly, ma'am, I am at a loss. It would qualify as need to know information, I should think.

I know I and other members of the JREF would certainly take up the banner of such an all important cause of taking action regarding the psychic alien interdimensional Bigfoots in spaceships around the Earth recycling bodies and abducting human females...

OK, *wait* this just not going to work out if I have to keep typing that. We're going to need something a little more wieldy. Umm... P.A.I.B.I.S.A.T.E.R.B.A.H.F.? Oh my lord, no. That's even worse.

...Yes! I've got it. Them. I'm going to refer to them as them. Do you mind if I call them them? Anyway, concerning them and the continual threat they pose to us all we need from you is at least some of the facts, evidences, and proofs that will allow us to reach the same conclusions as you have about them. If we could just get that then we could get down to the brass tacks of doing something about them. At this point you need to ask yourself "do I really believe this stuff?" If you are able to answer in the affirmative then you can move on to "how important is it that other people take me seriously and what am I willing to do to accomplish that?" What you will of course invariably come across are those like us who say "prove it."

Good luck with that.

 

[Maldon]

I know I and other members of the JREF would certainly take up the banner of such an all important cause of taking action regarding the psychic alien interdimensional Bigfoots in spaceships around the Earth recycling bodies and abducting human females...

We should have T-shirts with that statement!

Can I use it as a tag-line?

 

[GT/CS]

We should have T-shirts with that statement!

Can I use it as a tag-line?

This could become a huge internet phenomenon. Maybe even surpassing the Flying Spaghetti Monster!!

 

[Drewbot]

You're gonna need a better name.

I think there should be some reference to the group being 'Anti-Government Burning Bigfoot Bodies with Napalm, and Anti-Conspiratorial Ta-Boot!'

 

[kitakaze]

I have decided that from this point that whenever I am sufficiently impressed by the level of someone's woo delusion that I will say "paibisaterbahf!"

Guy with alien Pigfoot crossbow wars says "what?" I say "dude! P.A.I.B.I.S.A.T.E.R.B.A.H.F."!

Crossbow wars remains stumped and finally I say "psychic alien interdimensional Bigfoots in spaceships around the Earth recycling bodies and abducting human females, man!"

Bada-bing, I have a new Facebook friend.

Paibisaterbahf.

 

[kitakaze]

Oops. Forgot to say...

Drew, that rocks.

Paibisaterbahf 2008, word.

 

[Telaynay's G'son]

It is quite clear who is being defensive, and it is not those who are simply asking for a bit of tangible evidence that something like Bigfoot actually exists...

Where has anyone here proclaimed there is nothing awaiting scientific explanation.

Quite the contrary ... Waiting.... Waiting... Waiting ..


You have to have it, before you can lose it...

I have not stated that evidence of BF (or whatever) exists which meets modern forensic scientific criteria. Further, I am in no fervor to "prove" anything so please mark me off your target list of true believers and move onto the next one.

What I have stated is the possibility something of this nature may well exist and to deny such possibility w/o modern forensic scientific "proof" to the contrary is well...a tad myopic as well as unscientific as well as the easy posture to assume....IMHO, at present Sasquatchery is (in the anglo world) pursuit of a myth and fair game of those breathing the rarified air along with a holy grail pursued by the true believers and a profit center for the hustlers and charlatans busy mining the miners.

 

[GT/CS]

I have not stated that evidence of BF (or whatever) exists which meets modern forensic scientific criteria. Further, I am in no fervor to "prove" anything so please mark me off your target list of true believers and move onto the next one.

What I have stated is the possibility something of this nature may well exist and to deny such possibility w/o modern forensic scientific "proof" to the contrary is well...a tad myopic as well as unscientific as well as the easy posture to assume....IMHO, at present Sasquatchery is (in the anglo world) pursuit of a myth and fair game of those breathing the rarified air along with a holy grail pursued by the true believers and a profit center for the hustlers and charlatans busy mining the miners.

How would one prove that bigfoot does not exist? (bolding mine)

 

[EHocking]

...What I have stated is the possibility something of this nature may well exist and to deny such possibility w/o modern forensic scientific "proof" to the contrary is well...a tad myopic as well as unscientific as well as the easy posture to assume....

I don't think that is the case at all.

While it may "open minded" to entertain the possibility of BF existing, you can apply scientific critical thinking in determining the probability of BF existing.

First and foremost of the scientific data against the probability of BF existing is the lack of an adequate ancestor for such an animal to have evolved and there is nothing in the fossil record of a large hominid ever existing on the Americas. Further, there is no scientific evidence for a large hominid ever migrating to the Americas.

The scientific evidence that supports the position that there newver was and still is no such animal as BF is most probably the more sound position to take than trusting the sorely faulty "evidence" that proponents so far have collated.

Beyond folkstories, there is no physical evidence of such an animal existing.
There is better evidence for the possibility of unicorns in the America, at least there is a fossil record of a possible equine ancestor for such an animal.

 

[GT/CS]

Here's some amusing reading courtesy of one Dr. Ed Fusch. He seems to believe everything told to him by old Native Americans.

http://bigfootencounters.com/

Go to [Legends]
then near the bottom of the page is

"S'cwene'yti and the Stick Indians of the Colvilles"

It seems there are bigfoot/human hybrids running around Eastern Washington.

 

[kitakaze]

This thread, page 11, Dr. Ed Fusch and the s'cwene'yti. Check it out:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3671412#post3671412

 

[Hairy Man]

Kathy Strain AKA Hairy Man has just responded to my mail and was kind enough to give me a few leads to follow. She also informed that there is a recent Monster Quest episode on the subject that she was on. Wow, I'm really behind. When I can follow those up in the next week or so I'll keep everyone posted.

Did you ever get a response to my leads? If not, I have a few more you can check out.

 

[kitakaze]

Sorry, Kathy, I had to jog the memory a bit to remember that the leads you refer to are in my PM box. I haven't been very active with this thread lately. I watched your episode of Monster Quest on youtube and took a lot of notes on the show. I believe I even got as far as the write-up I did on the show for this thread but IIRC I may have lost the post before putting it up. One of those times you put a heck of a lot of work into some research for post, lose it, and feel loathe to do it over. I have the notes somewhere and if I don't find them I will start from scratch again.

If I have your permission, I will post the pm you sent me with the leads in this thread. By all means share further info with us. In your pm you referred to Dzunuḵʼwa/dsonoqua/wild woman of the woods of the kwakwakawakw people of Vancouver Island and coastal BC. You may have seen but she is covered in the beginning of this thread. IMO, as a singular boogeyman type entity, I don't feel she is consistent with what you would expect if a people were in contact with a species of giant non-human bipedal primates. I will grant you that there certainly are similarities with Bigfoot in her physical description. I have posted before about the Mungo Martin carved totems in Thunderbird Park at the Royal British Columbia Museum including one which prominently features dsonoqua with child. Here it is:



She's at the bottom. I have a much better post on the subject somewhere with an interactive map of the park and totems and info on Mungo Martin. I haven't contacted the email address you gave me but new that it's back on my mind I will get to it very soon. In your pm you said regarding dsonoqua that "most of us would say they are describing a Bigfoot." By "us" I assume you meant Bigfoot enthusiasts.

ETA: Kathy, just before I log out here I'm going to paste a link I found in my last link. It's a link to the website of the Quw'utsun' people of the Cowichan Valley on Vancouver Island:

http://www.quwutsun.ca/traditions.html

They make reference to dsonoqua and you will notice a totem of her in the upper right corner of the page.

 

[kitakaze]

Though I covered the Wild Woman of the Woods extensively in the beginning of the thread, I think I will add some further descriptions of her. As is often the case, variant spellings of her traditional name hamper the search. I have for the purposes of simplicity settled on dsonoqua for this thread.

Symbolism of T'sonokwa

She lives in the dark forest, in places long forgotten , lost and remote. Her outer aspect is frightening. She appears to be utterly insane, violent and dangerous. But to make her acquaintance and to win her friendship is to be allowed admittance to great treasures of knowledge and even access to material wealth. She represents the riches of our subconscious, as well as all our ghosts, those aspects of self which have been judged unworthy and dangerous and therefore banished, left as orphans. She is the power we have not yet had the courage to claim. (Northwest Coast First People)

http://www.wellstonejewelry.com/totem-pgs/tsonokwa.htm

Dzunukwamt: Wild Woman Mask

Dzunu„wa is the Wild Woman of the Woods. She controls the water of life and can bring back the dead by sprinkling this magic liquid on them. Her power is such that her very presence causes mortals to swoon or have nightmares.

Dzunu„wa has a hairy body, pendulous breasts, and purses her lips when she makes her cry: "uu huu uu". She has long, wild hair and wears a large basket on her back to carry away unwary children that she finds in her travels.

Although Dzunu„wa has children of her own, she collects the children of mortals that she plans to eat. She captures these children and tries to take them to her remote house in the woods, but the children always manage to outwit her and escape.

Dzunu„wa is not often seen today because she does not like the sounds of contemporary life, like powerboats. She will steal smoked salmon and other food from humans and will reward those who help her.

Dance and Regalia:
The last dances of the ˜seka may be the dzunu„wa. You can always recognize her. She is a crazy, wild woman from the woods with lips rounded and sticking out. She has large breasts hanging down, and makes a swooping motion with her hands portraying the putting of children into the basket that she wears on her back.

The Dzunu„wa may also come out during the t‡a'sala. There is also a Chief's Dzunu„wa, which is the last dance that comes out at the potlatch of a new Chief. A relative will go out and put the great Chief's Dzunu„wa mask or Gikam‡ on the new Chief. He doesn't dance; he just stands there and chants "Hoooooo".

http://www.umista.org/masks_story/en/ht/tsekaDzunukwa.html

Although most supernatural creatures of the Northwest Coast lore belong to the mythical past, the Wild Woman of the Woods (Dzoonnokwa) is believed by many to still exist, driven far into the forest by modern man.

When impersonated in dance, Dzoonokwa appeared wearing a bearskin. Her mask was carved with deep eye sockets, and her lips were formed to utter her characteristic cry. Shaggy, unkempt hair conveyed her wildness. She carried a basket, into which she put children who wandered into the woods, and whom she later devoured. This and other stories provided a means of impressing the importance of correct behavior.

Dzoonokwa appeared in several society dances, but during the Hamatsa cycle she spent most of the time asleep.

http://www.geocities.com/nasrf2003/FMT002.html

This mask represents the child-eating denizen of the forests. The circular hollows in the cheeks, the exaggerated pursed lips, and hair springing energetically from the head are typical of the dzunukwa.

Dzunukwa, one of a large family of giants, lives in the faraway mountains and forests and is black in color, with bushy unkempt hair and a pursed mouth through which she utters the cry "huuu, huuu, huuu".

She is a complex character in the dancing Society of the Weiwaikum First Nation.

She is known to be less than alert and certainly clumsy. Although she appears to be sleeping most of the time, she was a horrid and threatening figure. On her back she carried a basket in which she collected children and then took them home to eat. The children, however, usually outwitted her as she was clumsy and not so smart.

In another aspect, Dzunukwa controlled the "Magic Water of Life" a gift she bestowed on a family that was able to wrestle her secrets from her. Her most important role was that of bringing Wealth and Good Fortune.

http://www.changingtidecreations.com/native_indian_art_pages/transformation_mask_tsonoqua.html

Dzunuk'wa is a giant, hairy, black-bodied, big-breasted, wide-eyed female monster. She is physically strong enough to tear down large trees, spiritually powerful enough to resurrect the dead, and possesses magical treasures and great wealth. Human children who wander are likely to be captured by her and thrown into the basket on her back, expecially if they are stupid enough to eat the food with which she tempts them.

http://www.changingtidecreations.co...s/totem_pole_gallery_welcome_figure_front.htm

 

[kitakaze]

As Kathy Strain has suggested I have sent an email to the U'mista Cultural Society in Alert Bay, BC, Canada regarding dsonoqua. They are a Kwakwaka'wakw organization. I will post here that email:

To the U'mista Cultural Society,

Hello, (snip). I am currently involved in research and discussion at the James Randi Educational Foundation internet forums on the subject of native myths and traditions regarding the creature commonly known as "Sasquatch" or "Bigfoot." Part of our discussions has involved the Kwakwaka'wakw people and the stories, dances, and traditions involving Dzunk'wa, the Wild Woman of the Woods (and to a lesser extent, Bukwus, the Wild Man of the Woods). One description of Dzunk'wa we have looked at is the one listed for the Wild Women Dance on your Gwa'wina Dance page. The question at hand that we hope you can help us with is regarding the nature of the Dzunk'wa:

Do you feel that the for the Kwakwaka'wakw people the Wild Woman was primarily a means of impressing the importance of correct behaviour (particularly for children), say in the sense of being somewhat like the modern boogeyman figure? Or alternately do you feel that the Wild Woman may have reflected a manifestion of encounters between the Kwakwaka'wakw people and a species of large non-human primate, ie. sasquatch? Also, is it possible neither of these is correct or possibly a mixture of the two would be more correct?

We would greatly appreciate any understanding and insight you might be able to provide us in helping to understand this Kwakwaka'wakw tradition. I will provide a link to the website where our discussion is ongoing:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4241394#4241394

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Here is a link to the Gwa'wina Dance page referenced:

http://www.umista.org/kwakwakawakw/dance.php

Hopefully they can make things clearer for us. I chose to focus on dsonoqua even though we have also discussed the bukwus myth of the Kwakwaka'wakw to keep things simpler in terms of their response. Thanks to Kathy for the reminder.