National Emergency

Mumbles said:
If you want to discuss changing demographics in communities, feel free to start another thread, and I may join in.

But probably not. Because I don't like your attitude.
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Ethnic replacement of black neighborhoods is a national emergency caused by mass illegal immigration, and that is the topic of this thread
 
Lurch said:
Maybe I'm a "bleeding heart" because I see people in need.

Why excoriate folk who want to help. You overlook the immediate problem at hand, in your zeal to blast the "bleeding hearts." The policy of an administration headed by a petulant man-child that seeks only to 'punish' is the real issue. You seem to side with a passive-aggressive 'solution' aimed at sowing chaos and discord, then blame those on the receiving end of said idiocy when trying to be caring fellow human beings first and foremost.

Are Trump's supporters so under his thrall that they advocate his brand of cruelty?
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So would you agree there is a National Emergency in dealing with illegal immigration and border security? Or is everything still peachy?

Chris B.
 
A large part of the 'emergency' is the result of the Trump admin's grotesque handling of matters. As I've pointed out in another thread a little while back, consider the case of the fleeing Syrians accommodated by the tiny nation of Jordan. By proportion, the numbers of refugees there put to utter shame the shabby policies of supposedly the greatest and most powerful nation--the USA. Trump says his country is "full." HA!
 
Lurch said:
A large part of the 'emergency' is the result of the Trump admin's grotesque handling of matters. As I've pointed out in another thread a little while back, consider the case of the fleeing Syrians accommodated by the tiny nation of Jordan. By proportion, the numbers of refugees there put to utter shame the shabby policies of supposedly the greatest and most powerful nation--the USA. Trump says his country is "full." HA!
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What administration do we have to thank for the Syrians fleeing their Country? Can't hang that one on Trump.

Now as far as how matters are being handled currently, the illegal immigration problem has been passed down from one administration to the next since Reagan. (And anyone that wishes to point out so and so did this or that, just put it away before you begin, you know truthfully neither side has done much of anything. If they had we wouldn't be in this current mess now.) Republicans AND Democrats both share the blame for this current disgrace. Yet now, finally a President is actually doing something about it. Trump deserves a round of applause for trying to correct the situation, you don't get points for doing nothing and pointing a finger at the only President to tackle illegal immigration and meaningful border security since Ronald Reagan. (again, put it away) Only a fool would try to maintain there is no illegal immigration problem in the US. Everyone needs to put their hatred for Trump and disappointment in the 2016 election aside. Please put on your humanitarian hats just long enough to get these issues solved. These are real living people that are suffering folks, they're not to be ignored any longer no matter what side you're on.

Chris B.
 
ChrisBFRPKY said:
What administration do we have to thank for the Syrians fleeing their Country? Can't hang that one on Trump.

Now as far as how matters are being handled currently, the illegal immigration problem has been passed down from one administration to the next since Reagan. (And anyone that wishes to point out so and so did this or that, just put it away before you begin, you know truthfully neither side has done much of anything. If they had we wouldn't be in this current mess now.) Republicans AND Democrats both share the blame for this current disgrace. Yet now, finally a President is actually doing something about it. Trump deserves a round of applause for trying to correct the situation, you don't get points for doing nothing and pointing a finger at the only President to tackle illegal immigration and meaningful border security since Ronald Reagan. (again, put it away) Only a fool would try to maintain there is no illegal immigration problem in the US. Everyone needs to put their hatred for Trump and disappointment in the 2016 election aside. Please put on your humanitarian hats just long enough to get these issues solved. These are real living people that are suffering folks, they're not to be ignored any longer no matter what side you're on.

Chris B.
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The current administration's method of handling the issue has created a number of problems that frankly make the situation worse:

a. Family separation as a means of discouraging immigration over the Mexican-US border. The process when ordered was done without a clear plan to reunite families and has resulted in 1000s of children being permanently separated from their families. Doing this has not had the desired effect, had greatly increased the costs to the US taxpayer and has resulted in substantial loss of goodwill for the US government;
b. Attempts to prevent persons from claiming asylum. This is a violation of several treaties that have been incorporated into US law in accordance with international norms and US law;
c. The president's tendency to announce major policy shifts by tweet after being criticized by anti-immigration pundits. Disregarding the human rights implications, the policy implications are destroying the trust of other states in the US to be as responsible actor on the world stage;
d. The insistence on an actual physical barrier. Lots has been written here about the issues surrounding land use, cost, effectiveness, etc that rehashing that here make me responsible for the killing of valuable and innocent electrons;
e. The cutting of foreign aid to countries where many of the Central American immigrants are coming from. doing so isn't increasing the stability of these countries, increasing the likelihood that people will attempt to get to a safe area; and
f. The use of abusive and degrogatory terms for immigrants - illegal, legal or asylum seekers - increases the probability of violence being directed at immigrants.

Yeah, you can say 45's "handling it", if by handling it you mean "making it worse."
 
Border Reiver said:
The current administration's method of handling the issue has created a number of problems that frankly make the situation worse:

a. Family separation as a means of discouraging immigration over the Mexican-US border. The process when ordered was done without a clear plan to reunite families and has resulted in 1000s of children being permanently separated from their families. Doing this has not had the desired effect, had greatly increased the costs to the US taxpayer and has resulted in substantial loss of goodwill for the US government;
b. Attempts to prevent persons from claiming asylum. This is a violation of several treaties that have been incorporated into US law in accordance with international norms and US law;
c. The president's tendency to announce major policy shifts by tweet after being criticized by anti-immigration pundits. Disregarding the human rights implications, the policy implications are destroying the trust of other states in the US to be as responsible actor on the world stage;
d. The insistence on an actual physical barrier. Lots has been written here about the issues surrounding land use, cost, effectiveness, etc that rehashing that here make me responsible for the killing of valuable and innocent electrons;
e. The cutting of foreign aid to countries where many of the Central American immigrants are coming from. doing so isn't increasing the stability of these countries, increasing the likelihood that people will attempt to get to a safe area; and
f. The use of abusive and degrogatory terms for immigrants - illegal, legal or asylum seekers - increases the probability of violence being directed at immigrants.

Yeah, you can say 45's "handling it", if by handling it you mean "making it worse."
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a. April 2018 thru June 2018 was the duration of "family separation" under Trump. If you recall, some of those photos shown of children in holding cells were from the Obama admin.
b. To falsely claim asylum is a crime and wouldn't you know, it was determined many illegals were and still are gaming the system by claiming asylum when none was or is warranted. Separating the liars from those actually in need is not a bad thing.
c. The US is not the World's welfare teat and I don't mind reading this affirmation by tweet.
d. Walls work. Increased border security works. We can't deal with the illegal immigration problem until we slow down illegal immigration at the border. We can't stop it completely, but we can do things to slow its pace.
e. see item "c" above.
f. If someone has entered the US illegally they are by definition an illegal alien. I don't believe there is a tendency for violence against illegal aliens, (unless you consider deporting them a violent act). There is a well documented abuse of workers though (low wages, poor living conditions, etc.). The US welcomes immigrants, we are a nation of immigrants, yet those coming here need to do so legally and by the book. (they know this yet some choose to come here illegally and try to game the system with false claims to get to the front of the line) It's unfair to all who have entered properly or are still waiting to do so. We are a nation of immigrants, not criminals.

Chris B.
 
ChrisBFRPKY said:
What administration do we have to thank for the Syrians fleeing their Country? Can't hang that one on Trump.

Now as far as how matters are being handled currently, the illegal immigration problem has been passed down from one administration to the next since Reagan. (And anyone that wishes to point out so and so did this or that, just put it away before you begin, you know truthfully neither side has done much of anything. If they had we wouldn't be in this current mess now.) Republicans AND Democrats both share the blame for this current disgrace. Yet now, finally a President is actually doing something about it. Trump deserves a round of applause for trying to correct the situation, you don't get points for doing nothing and pointing a finger at the only President to tackle illegal immigration and meaningful border security since Ronald Reagan. (again, put it away) Only a fool would try to maintain there is no illegal immigration problem in the US. Everyone needs to put their hatred for Trump and disappointment in the 2016 election aside. Please put on your humanitarian hats just long enough to get these issues solved. These are real living people that are suffering folks, they're not to be ignored any longer no matter what side you're on.

Chris B.
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I'm going to disagree with you on the above, but not in the way you're probably expecting. I've long been a proponent of cracking down on illegal immigration and have wanted stronger border controls. And I agree that that can has been kicked down the road by various administrations for far too long. But just because Trump is doing something doesn't mean it's the right thing, or even helpful, and so doesn't deserve any sort of accolades merely because 'it's something'. In fact a mantra that my friends in meat space are probably sick of hearing from me is that thanks to Trump it's now impossible to have a reasoned discussion of the immigration issue. All too often now when the subject comes up you get stuck in the 'oh, so you're for putting kids in concentration camps' corner by whomever you're talking to.

As a crude analogy : you're unemployed and living off a substantial but not inexhaustible savings. Trying to find work in your very specific field has been fruitless for a long time now, and you know you need to do something to start getting a positive cashflow. So you decide to take half your remaining savings to Vegas and try to hit it big on the slots. Yeah, you've just done something about a problem that was dragging on unaddressed, but you haven't actually helped anything.
 
Joe Random said:
I'm going to disagree with you on the above, but not in the way you're probably expecting. I've long been a proponent of cracking down on illegal immigration and have wanted stronger border controls. And I agree that that can has been kicked down the road by various administrations for far too long. But just because Trump is doing something doesn't mean it's the right thing, or even helpful, and so doesn't deserve any sort of accolades merely because 'it's something'. In fact a mantra that my friends in meat space are probably sick of hearing from me is that thanks to Trump it's now impossible to have a reasoned discussion of the immigration issue. All too often now when the subject comes up you get stuck in the 'oh, so you're for putting kids in concentration camps' corner by whomever you're talking to.

As a crude analogy : you're unemployed and living off a substantial but not inexhaustible savings. Trying to find work in your very specific field has been fruitless for a long time now, and you know you need to do something to start getting a positive cashflow. So you decide to take half your remaining savings to Vegas and try to hit it big on the slots. Yeah, you've just done something about a problem that was dragging on unaddressed, but you haven't actually helped anything.
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Finally, someone came up with a solid argument. Very valid points.
 
Joe Random said:
I'm going to disagree with you on the above, but not in the way you're probably expecting. I've long been a proponent of cracking down on illegal immigration and have wanted stronger border controls. And I agree that that can has been kicked down the road by various administrations for far too long. But just because Trump is doing something doesn't mean it's the right thing, or even helpful, and so doesn't deserve any sort of accolades merely because 'it's something'. In fact a mantra that my friends in meat space are probably sick of hearing from me is that thanks to Trump it's now impossible to have a reasoned discussion of the immigration issue. All too often now when the subject comes up you get stuck in the 'oh, so you're for putting kids in concentration camps' corner by whomever you're talking to.

As a crude analogy : you're unemployed and living off a substantial but not inexhaustible savings. Trying to find work in your very specific field has been fruitless for a long time now, and you know you need to do something to start getting a positive cashflow. So you decide to take half your remaining savings to Vegas and try to hit it big on the slots. Yeah, you've just done something about a problem that was dragging on unaddressed, but you haven't actually helped anything.
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Drawing attention to the issue is the key. Whether that attention is bad or good, either way will prompt some sort of action. I don't see your analogy as it applies to Trump's actions on illegal immigration and border security.

Better to get the issues on the table rather than continuing to sweep them under the rug for the next administration. It just may embarrass the opposing side into action. If everyone really wants to solve the illegal immigration problems, it should be easy. Right? The problem we are facing is that everyone wants to solve the problem on record, but off the record they want everything to remain as it is for access to cheap labor. Just keep an eye on California politicians, do you really think they want these issues addressed? No way. Too much produce to pick. It's much better for them to keep the illegals as they are and get the Federal Government to pick up the costs of things like healthcare.

Chris B.
 
Maybe this has already been said but the people being dropped off in cities right now are not illegal immigrants.
 
Baylor said:
Ethnic replacement of black neighborhoods is a national emergency caused by mass illegal immigration, and that is the topic of this thread
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That's a national emergency?

How come?
 
ChrisBFRPKY said:
We can't deal with the illegal immigration problem until we slow down illegal immigration at the border. We can't stop it completely, but we can do things to slow its pace.
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It had been falling for 10 years before Trump was elected.
 
ChrisBFRPKY said:
Drawing attention to the issue is the key. Whether that attention is bad or good, either way will prompt some sort of action. I don't see your analogy as it applies to Trump's actions on illegal immigration and border security.

Better to get the issues on the table rather than continuing to sweep them under the rug for the next administration. It just may embarrass the opposing side into action. If everyone really wants to solve the illegal immigration problems, it should be easy. Right? The problem we are facing is that everyone wants to solve the problem on record, but off the record they want everything to remain as it is for access to cheap labor. Just keep an eye on California politicians, do you really think they want these issues addressed? No way. Too much produce to pick. It's much better for them to keep the illegals as they are and get the Federal Government to pick up the costs of things like healthcare.

Chris B.
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Where I think I disagree with you is that I don't feel that simply bringing attention to the issue on its own a good thing. Yes, Trump has made the border a major issue in the public eye. But it's my opinion that the way in which he's done that has poisoned the ability to discuss the issue rationally and with any semblance of nuance. Is there a fallacy akin to 'poisoning the well' where the poison is applied to the underlying issue and not the source?

And let me be clear that it's not merely that I disagree with Trump's proposed solutions that is my sticking point. It's his clumsy, bombastic, would-be-authoritarian manner that is my major issue.

Say that Obama proposed a general amnesty and would grant citizenship to any and all with the sole provision that they pay any back taxes owed. I'd have a problem with that, but the issue itself could still be debated in the public square with due rationality and nuance.

By bringing up an issue which I feel is important, but doing it in such a mis-aimed simplistic manner he's [Trump] tanked my hopes of having a reasoned discourse on the issue. I'd love to be able to discuss issues like the rampant exploitation of the undocumented making it nigh impossible for a legitimate, completely law-abiding general contractor business to flourish, but I can't because the Bloviating Gasbag in the Oval Office makes people assume I want to throw kids into camps. I'd like to be able to talk about the importance of /cultural/ (note well : NOT racial) cohesion, but I can't because Cheeto Benito has people primed to shout that I'm scared of brown people (for the record I don't give a toss what your skin color is as long as you don't blast your stereo after 10pm or force your wife to wear a beekeeper suit).

I'd love to see taxes (even my own) go way up to provide a more robust social safety net for people, but I don't think that will work if we don't keep reasonable control over the border. Try having that discussion in meat space these days without people wanting to hit you with a MAGA brand on your forehead. Even if I'm wrong (which is quite well possible) I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong on the basis of whatever the **** effluent pours out of Trump's mouth.

I can't make my rational case, and I can't learn where I might be mistaken on the issue because Trump has turned it into such a hyper-polarized, mono-syllabic talking point that only the shrieking extremists on either end get heard.
 
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Minoosh said:
Maybe this has already been said but the people being dropped off in cities right now are not illegal immigrants.
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It hasn't been said because it isn't true.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-new-mexico-city-donations-needed/3466742002/
April 14, 2019

The Border Patrol issued a news release on Thursday saying that it would release "processed illegal aliens" in El Paso and southern New Mexico because of "capacity issues" at Immigration and Customs Enforcement detention centers.
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https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...ant-family-members-local-churches/2156585002/
Nov, 2018

Federal immigration authorities have released about 2,500 Central American families at Hispanic churches in the Phoenix area over the past two months, totaling more than 5,000 people, according to one pastor.

The families had recently crossed the border illegally in southwestern Arizona, which has become one of the most popular entry points for a growing wave of migrant families arriving at the southern border seeking refuge in the United States.
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Many news agencies lovingly refer to them as migrants but they are still illegal. Crossing the border illegally = illegal.

Here's one more from several years ago (this is nothing new):

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...ndocumented-migrants-dropped-arizona/9707503/
May 28, 2014

Scores of undocumented immigrants [in other words, illegal aliens - my edit] from Central America have been released at Greyhound Lines Inc. bus stations in Tucson and Phoenix over the past several days after they were flown to Arizona from south Texas, officials acknowledged.

Andy Adame, a spokesman for the Border Patrol in Tucson, confirmed that over the weekend federal officials flew about 400 migrants apprehended in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas to Tucson to be processed. He said the migrants were flown to Arizona because the Border Patrol does not have enough manpower to handle a surge in illegal immigrants in south Texas.
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Joe Random said:
Where I think I disagree with you is that I don't feel that simply bringing attention to the issue on its own a good thing. Yes, Trump has made the border a major issue in the public eye. But it's my opinion that the way in which he's done that has poisoned the ability to discuss the issue rationally and with any semblance of nuance. Is there a fallacy akin to 'poisoning the well' where the poison is applied to the underlying issue and not the source?

And let me be clear that it's not merely that I disagree with Trump's proposed solutions that is my sticking point. It's his clumsy, bombastic, would-be-authoritarian manner that is my major issue.

Say that Obama proposed a general amnesty and would grant citizenship to any and all with the sole provision that they pay any back taxes owed. I'd have a problem with that, but the issue itself could still be debated in the public square with due rationality and nuance.

By bringing up an issue which I feel is important, but doing it in such a mis-aimed simplistic manner he's [Trump] tanked my hopes of having a reasoned discourse on the issue. I'd love to be able to discuss issues like the rampant exploitation of the undocumented making it nigh impossible for a legitimate, completely law-abiding general contractor business to flourish, but I can't because the Bloviating Gasbag in the Oval Office makes people assume I want to throw kids into camps. I'd like to be able to talk about the importance of /cultural/ (note well : NOT racial) cohesion, but I can't because Cheeto Benito has people primed to shout that I'm scared of brown people (for the record I don't give a toss what your skin color is as long as you don't blast your stereo after 10pm or force your wife to wear a beekeeper suit).

I'd love to see taxes (even my own) go way up to provide a more robust social safety net for people, but I don't think that will work if we don't keep reasonable control over the border. Try having that discussion in meat space these days without people wanting to hit you with a MAGA brand on your forehead. Even if I'm wrong (which is quite well possible) I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong on the basis of whatever the **** effluent pours out of Trump's mouth.

I can't make my rational case, and I can't learn where I might be mistaken on the issue because Trump has turned it into such a hyper-polarized, mono-syllabic talking point that only the shrieking extremists on either end get heard.
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Joe,
For the most part this post seems well enough reasoned, and you admitting to possibly being wrong is an admirable trait.

Two points detract:

- Cultural cohesion is not a necessity for harmony. In many large cities there are numerous enclaves of markedly differing culture existing cheek by jowl.

-The "beekeeper" outfit remark is, I presume, your admonition against the patriarchal hegemony of select cultures wherein the women are required to not present any skin in public. Many of these women, having been raised in such a culture, happily accede to the tradition. Who are we to decry that? Over time, the natural process of integration will usually lead to a diminishment in such practices, as the new generation wants to better blend in with their fellows. Indeed, if we are to desire to bring about such change as we deem desirable, having these people live among us can only accelerate a cultural shift that would more likely remain stagnant back in the old country. In any event, cultural practices which are not intrusive upon others outside of said culture, and which do not impair the rights of the practitioners, are outside the concern of we others.


Highlighting cultural differences is often a substitute for emphasizing skin color differences. Not always, of course, but quite often enough.
 
Lurch said:
Joe,
For the most part this post seems well enough reasoned, and you admitting to possibly being wrong is an admirable trait.

Two points detract:

- Cultural cohesion is not a necessity for harmony. In many large cities there are numerous enclaves of markedly differing culture existing cheek by jowl.

-The "beekeeper" outfit remark is, I presume, your admonition against the patriarchal hegemony of select cultures wherein the women are required to not present any skin in public. Many of these women, having been raised in such a culture, happily accede to the tradition. Who are we to decry that? Over time, the natural process of integration will usually lead to a diminishment in such practices, as the new generation wants to better blend in with their fellows. Indeed, if we are to desire to bring about such change as we deem desirable, having these people live among us can only accelerate a cultural shift that would more likely remain stagnant back in the old country. In any event, cultural practices which are not intrusive upon others outside of said culture, and which do not impair the rights of the practitioners, are outside the concern of we others.


Highlighting cultural differences is often a substitute for emphasizing skin color differences. Not always, of course, but quite often enough.
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So with (genuine) respect, this is how I feel about that.

Yes, far too often skin color is used as a lazy shortcut for culture. But I strongly feel that, while we should be open to and accepting of other cultures, some times those other cultures are absolutely inferior to ours and not worthy of respect.

A conversation I'm currently having in meat space which mirrors a thread here on ISF is the whole "women wearing tights as fashion even if they're not working out" . If the worst thing you can say about our culture is "women want to flaunt their physical sexuality while pretending they're not" then we're still light years beyond "you can't show your hair because it'll tempt men". I can't give precisely scientific support for this, but I do absolutely believe that societies which pre/proscribe dress (usually for women) are far more regressive than those which don't. For as gauche as I might find it, I'd far rather live in a society where women do their shopping in "look at my labia" leggings, than one in which "she showed her belly so it's totally cool I raped her" is seen as rational.

This is what I was getting at with my comments above : you can be a swarthy caramel colored mestizo or a coal black Ethiope : I honestly don't care so long as you value the sexes equally and respect people around you. But I will not give any leeway to 'just going along with tradition'. Sure, I might not fault the overly-cottoned specific woman in question walking down the street of Cromwell Road, but you can absolutely be sure I'll be judging the living **** out of the bloke walking 5 feet in front of her.
 
Joe Random said:
Where I think I disagree with you is that I don't feel that simply bringing attention to the issue on its own a good thing. Yes, Trump has made the border a major issue in the public eye. But it's my opinion that the way in which he's done that has poisoned the ability to discuss the issue rationally and with any semblance of nuance. Is there a fallacy akin to 'poisoning the well' where the poison is applied to the underlying issue and not the source?

And let me be clear that it's not merely that I disagree with Trump's proposed solutions that is my sticking point. It's his clumsy, bombastic, would-be-authoritarian manner that is my major issue.

Say that Obama proposed a general amnesty and would grant citizenship to any and all with the sole provision that they pay any back taxes owed. I'd have a problem with that, but the issue itself could still be debated in the public square with due rationality and nuance.

By bringing up an issue which I feel is important, but doing it in such a mis-aimed simplistic manner he's [Trump] tanked my hopes of having a reasoned discourse on the issue. I'd love to be able to discuss issues like the rampant exploitation of the undocumented making it nigh impossible for a legitimate, completely law-abiding general contractor business to flourish, but I can't because the Bloviating Gasbag in the Oval Office makes people assume I want to throw kids into camps. I'd like to be able to talk about the importance of /cultural/ (note well : NOT racial) cohesion, but I can't because Cheeto Benito has people primed to shout that I'm scared of brown people (for the record I don't give a toss what your skin color is as long as you don't blast your stereo after 10pm or force your wife to wear a beekeeper suit).

I'd love to see taxes (even my own) go way up to provide a more robust social safety net for people, but I don't think that will work if we don't keep reasonable control over the border. Try having that discussion in meat space these days without people wanting to hit you with a MAGA brand on your forehead. Even if I'm wrong (which is quite well possible) I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong on the basis of whatever the **** effluent pours out of Trump's mouth.

I can't make my rational case, and I can't learn where I might be mistaken on the issue because Trump has turned it into such a hyper-polarized, mono-syllabic talking point that only the shrieking extremists on either end get heard.
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I think we will see something come about. It's a process and it's not going to be easy. There is a plan in place and we're at step one, secure the border. I hope to see more steps taken by this President. I don't care who does it but I hope to see it get done.

If there is some way Trump can get the border secured, that sets the table for immigration reform. Ideally, I'd like to see amnesty for all who have been inside the US for the past 10 years and have committed no crimes other than coming here illegally. I'd like to see all those waiting to enter approved en mass. To be fair I do think there should be a cut off point of 10 years, where those that have been here less than 10 years have to go out and come back in legally. It could be done and their cases could be expedited especially if they have relatives here in the US.

In the meantime, Green cards for all, get everyone here legal then begin the process of citizenship for those who want it. If someone has been working without paying taxes, they should pay a penalty but no more than any American would have to pay for delinquent taxes.

That's my wish list. I voted for Trump and I'm not ashamed of it. So far I'm happy with the actions he has taken to secure the border. His actions on immigration reform will determine whether I vote for him again in 2020. Everyone before Trump had promised immigration reform and none have come thru. If Trump doesn't get something done he's no better than those who came before him.

Chris B.
 
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