Naming children - should the state step in?

Who is to decide what constitutes a "burden"? Or, for that matter, "bizarre"?

Today's "bizarre" name can quickly become popular tomorrow, and more diverse names are a plus in my book.

Might we agree that naming your baby "Violence", "Midnight Chardonnay", or "Number 16 Bus Shelter" is bizarre and likely to be a burden for the child, in most books?

Burdens vary, but I would think that during the sensitive periods of most people's childhood and adolescence, where you go through more or less severe identity crises, alone having a name to which the initial reaction is usually "are you serious???" is quite a burden.

Hans
 
Parents have the right to "force" their children to do all sorts of things. Until actual harm is demonstrated, I see no need for the state to get involved in determining what is or is not an acceptably conformist name.

I think that is a silly position. Children are not your property, they are your responsibility. If you cannot act responsible, someone will have to help you, and that is (one of the things) the state is there for.

I think some people need to get over the idea that the state is some monster that should have minimum interaction with the people. The state should bloody well BE the people, and if it is not where you are, that is the problem you should work to solve.

Ooops :boxedin:

Hans
 
So, should parents not be allowed to do that? Should Thick and Thin's son be taken into care?

I would think that "Brooklyn" is far less problematic than "Number 16 Bus Shelter", although in my ears, it sounds like a girl's name.

However, it is not a question of taking anybody into care, it is a question of maintaining a reasonably flexible list of approved names.

As I mentioned, the approved list in my own country holds well over 20,000 names, including several taken from Tolkien's books, so there should be plenty of room for individuality. And it is not my impression that it is hard at all to get a new name included, as long as it resembles a name at all, and is not generally offensive.

Hans
 
Should the state have any say in what parents name their children?
At least in Finland language laws play a role. A child must be given a name which is respectable and popularly in use as a person´s name of the gender in question, and it must be written in a form typical for the native language of the child. Finnish people cannot give a name like James or Cindy to their child, for example, because they are not typical Finnish names.

I named my son as Oliver Alex, of which the latter name was accepted as legal only by a narrow margin. My native language is Finnish, and the native language of my wife is Russian. Alex is not a typical written form of a name in either language. We stated in the application that the native language of our 1 month old son was English, and it was accepted.

The naming laws are designed to protect the national cultural heritage, and also to protect the child from having a name that will have a negative social impact. For example, a popular Finnish woman´s name combined with a popular Finnish family name, makes the phrase "anal hole" in Finnish language. The name is legal and in popular use, and so is the family name too, but it might not be accepted if you try to give the name to a child whose family name will be this unfortunate one. Better watch whom you marry, if a woman carries this first name...
 
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Well, there's certainly no joy in being saddled with a name that everyone of your designated gender and approximate age on earth seems to be sporting either. Ask me.

This is a discussion frequently held on Swedish messaging boards as people have some very clear definitions of what makes a name "white trash" (yes, we use the phrase untranslated).

There are long term studies in Sweden indicating that a man with a name ending in -y is five times more likely to have spent time in the penal system or have treatment for substance abuse. They were also less likely to hold down a job, despite a booming employment during their formative and young years. Of course, these studies were made on men born between 1945 and 1965 when there was a fashion for anglophone or anglophonic (i.e. made up **** that sounds vaguely English) names among the groups that are already over represented in prison. These boys would be named Johnny, Sonny, Ronny, Kenny, Billy, Tommy etc and they also got a bad start in life. On the one hand, clearly the names didn't push them into crime and/or violence but the names certainly make other people who don't like to be around that, wary of "Tommy" or "Sonny". So parents who thought they were giving their kid a nice, normal fashionable name nonetheless gave them a stigmatized one.

Now the discussion goes that trying to be special marks your kid as white trash and once again there are anglophone names, at least for the boys, at the center of the discussion. What are perfectly normal and acceptable names to anyone in the English speaking world, in Sweden means your mum switched to menthol when she was expecting you "because she wanted the crib to smell nice for the baby". Kevin, Dennis and - I **** you not - Texas are some names that will mark you out. Usually they will be spelled with the unnecessary addition of the letter h and whatever they can find from the arse of the alphabet, like "Cewin", "Chewinh","Denniz", "Dhenniz" and "Thexaz".

These are all fashionable names. Loads of kids wear them. Where they are from, they have no particular connotations but give them to a Swedish kid and no matter how unfair that is, their first grade teacher will have to constantly fight a suspicion that Thexaz is a little slow and probably violent. Whenever he ****s up, teacher will get confirmation bias and remember it a lot more than she would if Erik, Daniel or Oscar did the same thing. Naming your kid Thexaz or Chewin is not actually that far from calling him Hitler, in impact on his life.

Sweden has naming laws only slightly less strict than Denmark's. You can't name a boy Blomman ("Flower"), because apparently it's too "gay", you can't name a kid Gud ("God") or Satan - other turned down names are "Hosiannah", "Dirt", "Asterix", "Lovejoy", "Annncocccozz" and "Brunstgnägg" (app: "Rutting Neigh").

Now explain to me the logic behind allowing a name like "Thexazz" - dooming a boy to a lifetime of "So... your parents liked dog racing, Buckfast and scuzzing, did they?" or "It was probably Thexazz. Keep him after school until he admits." or "So. Where did you serve your time?" - but not "Asterix"?

It's too random and too impossible to say which names will be "bad" names. I don't think anyone would have reacted to Hosianna Davidsson on the school roll but many teachers will go "Oh, ****! Another Cewin!" no matter how well behaved and studious Cewin is.

Since we're arguing that the name in itself causes these reactions, then we can't blame the teachers for not getting past their predjudices, but the parents for picking a name from Cumbucket's Big Book of Baby Names. The fact that Kevin sounds perfectly normal to you, as an English speaker, is neither here nor there. Chewin will have to live somewhere where his name is a badge of dishonor. Whether he deserves that or not.
 
I daresay that it's a bit extreme having the state step in to protect children in this case, but parents should have a bit of common sense. I dislike 'unusual' names for children - they frequently 'date' people as they go in and out of fashion. I particularly dislike unusual spellings on 'normal' names - how irritating must it be to go through life saying 'That's Suzan with a zed'.

Having said that, if I'd had a girl I might have been tempted to name her Shivorn, but insist that it's pronounced 'See-o-ban'.
 
So now some faceless bureaucrat is going to rename my future daughter Oxycontin 80mg because she might get teased by her classmates?
 
*snipped for brevity*

Since we're arguing that the name in itself causes these reactions, then we can't blame the teachers for not getting past their predjudices, but the parents for picking a name from Cumbucket's Big Book of Baby Names. The fact that Kevin sounds perfectly normal to you, as an English speaker, is neither here nor there. Chewin will have to live somewhere where his name is a badge of dishonor. Whether he deserves that or not.

I agree, although I don't think the claim is that 'white trash' names will change a child's destiny (at least not significantly), but rather that certain names are prolific in certain demographic groups, so the basic thing determining the different fates of Khenney and Alexander is that Alexander's parents are upper middle class, whereas Khenney's are probably not.

At least, that tends to be the situation in Denmark.

But all that still does not justify allowing parents to name their child something like "Number 16 Bus Shelter".

Hans
 
In Japan, all names that are registered have to use Japanese phonemes which means that certain names simply can't exist as they cannot be transliterated into the Japanese syllabary system.

An American by the name of David Ardwinkle (I think?) had to become "Debito Arudou" because various parts of his name cannot be pronounced in Japanese.

The Japanese government also refuses to register names using certain kanji such as for "excrement" or "devil".
 
And you see no harm to the child with those or other extreme names?

Which names, again? The ones you made up? If the name is so extreme that it demonstrably causes harm, then action may be required. In contrast, I do not feel that the state should act on a hypothetical future harm.


Then why not practice what you preach and go name yourself " **** face" ( not stating that as an insult, but rather it was the name most likely to get ridiculed i could think of with 15 minutes before i leave.) . Seriously, do you not see the crap this is going to pile on the kids?

My daughter has an unusual, I suspect unique, first name. When she was little we called her by a more mundane diminutive form of her name. However, a couple of years ago, she began insisting on being called by her full name.



I knew a guy in college whose middle name was just "F". Didn't stand for anything.

This is not uncommon in the South, in my experience. It seems some people think their child needs a middle initial, but don't want to give them an actual middle name.

Well that's one number, certainly, although you'll note I didn't use it. I don't know if you have or have had children, but even a quite distant parent ought to have some idea of the character of the child long before they were 18.

But a name isn't needed at birth: "Baby [Surname]" will suffice. I suppose you'd need a name when starting school, but that's plenty of time to meet and get to know the person you're naming.

I don't know what bizarro world you live in, but in my world a newborn child needs a name (and social security number) to be listed on my medical insurance, for tax returns, etc.

I think that is a silly position. Children are not your property, they are your responsibility. If you cannot act responsible, someone will have to help you, and that is (one of the things) the state is there for.

I think some people need to get over the idea that the state is some monster that should have minimum interaction with the people. The state should bloody well BE the people, and if it is not where you are, that is the problem you should work to solve.

Ooops :boxedin:

Hans

I'm sorry you think it is silly. I, in turn, find blind conformity to be silly. YMMV.
 
Might we agree that naming your baby "Violence", "Midnight Chardonnay", or "Number 16 Bus Shelter" is bizarre and likely to be a burden for the child, in most books?

Unusual, yes. Likely to be a burden? No, I am not prepared to agree to that. For one thing, the name on a child's birth certificate, and the name they actually go by are often different.
 
That legal standard is a good one because it applies no matter what we're talking about. Parents can be abusive with their diet, housing, clothing, punishment, etc - but that doesn't mean parents should have to get pre-approval for all those things.

<snip>

You betcha a name can be abusive, and if parents are outrageously abusive with their name it would be surprising if that were the only abusive thing they did.

Indeed, the children with names like "Adolph Hitler" noted above were taken away from their parents for reasons other than the names.
 
I'm sorry you think it is silly. I, in turn, find blind conformity to be silly. YMMV.

Nice strawman there. Do you feel 20,000+ names to choose from and the option to apply for more is blind conformity?

Hans
 
Unusual, yes. Likely to be a burden? No, I am not prepared to agree to that. For one thing, the name on a child's birth certificate, and the name they actually go by are often different.

Their real name is going to be visible in a lot of places, school pupil lists, passport, even bus cards. Sure many of the problems are negotiable, but why cater for them in the first place? Why must they even have to be concerned by such a silly whim of their parents? Is there any good reason AT ALL for it, except the holy principle of total freedom (which should then also apply to the child)?

Hans
 

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