Myth Pro and Con about the Minimum Wage

[BPSCG]

Nice to see how much utter tripe - and some sensible comment - has been posted here while I've been sleeping.

And your stuff falls mostly into the former category.

Sorry; low-hanging fruit...

You may have guessed that this is a pet peeve of mine. As a recruiter, I often meet men who work 50-60 hours per week, all at or about the minimum wage (here around $11-00, equivalent #USD7-50). Most of them somehow support families on the pitiful amount they receive.

You're wrong. "Everybody knows" it's impossible to support oneself on minimum wage, never mind a family.

My answer to the bloated plutocrats who cry about the measly amounts paid to the lowly-paid is to suggest that, for a week, they swap jobs with the cleaner/dustman/checkout operator/LPG filler, then come back and talk to me about how easy those minimum wage jobs are and why they don't even deserve the paltry amount they are currently worth.

Eight-foot tall straw man wearing straw clothing and standing on a straw platform. Nobody claims those jobs aren't physically demanding. But that's not the point. The value of work - the value of anything - is what someone is willing to pay for it. Right or wrong, society says being an employment recruiter is more valuable than cleaning bedpans. It says being a professional athlete is more valuable than being a recruiter, and being Oprah Winfrey is more valuable than just about anything.

Frankly, I don't think that's right; teachers should make more money than football players. I'm sure a lot of people agree with me in principle, but we all know teachers don't get paid what they should. Maybe we should have a wages and salary czar who would set the price of labor. So, do you want to put me in charge of setting wages and salaries? As you can see, I'm not completely unreasonable.

I didn't think so.

But why not? Why not have one person - or say one committee - determining what everyone's services are worth, and make sure nobody pays more or less, under penalty of having Sylvia Browne raking her claw-like nails across your back in sexual ecstasy?

Because it would be stupid, that's why. How can I possibly know what a fair wage for an auto mechanic in Auckland is? How can I possibly determine whether he should get paid more because he's really good and knows how to work on difficult cars, or less because he's an incompetent who shouldn't be trusted to fill your gas tank?

But that's what minimum wage laws do. Supply and demand? The hell with that - everyone's work is worth at least $5.15 an hour. You know and I know that's not true.

Oh, but it's not a question of the value of the people's work; it's a question of paying them wages they can live on, you say. Well, if the cost of living is too high, why not just put limits on the amounts that people can charge for food, clothing, shelter, and medical expenses? Tell the guy who rents out an apartment that he has to cut his rent by 15%. Tell the grocery store the same. Medical expenses? We all know they're through the roof; they need to be slashed, and if the doctors don't like it, let them go emptying bed pans and see how they like that.

What could be fairer?

 

[Ohmer]

Let me get this straight. New Jersey requires, by law, that an attendant pump your gas? You can't do it yourself?

Yes. I live in the other state (Oregon) that has this law. I have lived with it all of the my life and usually don't mind the wait. What I find strange is how little it effects gas prices. I always give my native californian wife a bad time when we drive to California and have to pay more at the pump in addition to haveing to pump it ourselves.

 

[BPSCG]

No, a minimum wage law doesn't make the job illegal; it makes paying someone what his labor is actually worth illegal, if his worth is less than the minimum wage.

Which means that those jobs will usually disappear. For all intents and purposes it is the same as making the jobs illegal, unless you want to argue that minimum wage does not have an effect on employment.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[Tony]

Yes. I live in the other state (Oregon) that has this law. I have lived with it all of the my life and usually don't mind the wait. What I find strange is how little it effects gas prices. I always give my native californian wife a bad time when we drive to California and have to pay more at the pump in addition to haveing to pump it ourselves.

I mostly dislike the fact that, even if you're able and willing, you can't pump your own gas.

 

[BPSCG]

And as for the intelligence of anyone in charge out this way ...

As do many lawmakers, station owners and motorists in New Jersey. Critics of a shift to self-service say pumping their own gas would be especially hard on the elderly...

When Mrs. BPSCG's father died, I taught her mother - then 75 years old, with two artificial knees - how to pump her own gas. Took all of one lesson, and she's been doing it herself ever since. Good thing, too, because I can't be flying from Virginia to Texas every time she needs a fill-up.

could create a safety hazard as inexperienced motorists try to fill their tanks and cost many station attendants their jobs while doing nothing to lower prices.

Yes, we've all heard the horror stories. You can't open the paper these days without seeing newspaper headlines like this:

Five Dead In Gas Station Explosion
Senior Citizen Dropped Lit Highway Flare Into Gas Tank
​

Assemblyman Francis Bodine, a Republican, says that after stopping at self-service stations in the South recently, he found that gas in New Jersey was the same price or slightly cheaper. "So I don't see any economic savings to having to pump your own gas," he says.

What a [rule8] moron. Has the thought maybe occurred to him that it might even be cheaper if the owner could cut back his staff? Gee, if paying people to pump gas doesn't affect the price of gas, why not hire forty or fifty pump jockeys for every station? Idiot.

"The flip side of it is ... there'd be some job losses." Besides, he says, "If I'm in a tux going to a black tie (event), I don't want to stop and handle a gas pump."

If you can't fill your gas tank without spilling it all over your nice new tux, you probably shouldn't be allowed to feed yourself when you get to your black tie event, either.

Bill Dressler, executive director of the New Jersey Gasoline Retailers Association and Allied Trades, says there are safety concerns. While attendants are trained, many motorists would be novices.

Uh, yeah, right. Learning how to pump gas takes months of training. It's a grueling education, and a lot of people can't handle it. That's why they change careers to something not as taxing on the brain - like being a New Jersey State Assemblyman.

 

[Tony]

Uh, yeah, right. Learning how to pump gas takes months of training. It's a grueling education, and a lot of people can't handle it. That's why they change careers to something not as taxing on the brain - like being a New Jersey State Assemblyman.

It's absurd. I've been pumping gas since I was a child. The only "training" I ever had was my mom saying "squeeze the thing under the handle".

 

[WildCat]

The constant amongst people at the minimum at the minimum wage level is that the jobs they do are the worst, most mind-numbingly boring or dirty jobs. Cleaners are a case in point. We don't want to clean our own filth, yet we don't want to pay more than a pittance to get someone to do it for us. Go visit any hospital and have a talk to the cleaners. Then think about how long that hospital would remain anywhere near effectively clean if all the cleaners gave up because they don't get paid enough. (As an aside, you can count what percentage of them are white-skinned.)

Problem is, if the price was higher the "white wingers" (whatever the hell that is) would just clean up themselves. Labor, as does everything else, has a market value. A cleaning job simply isn't worth $50,000 a year in salary. It would be swell if it worked that way, my rental apt. upstairs currently rents for $995/month. I feel I deserve $2,000/month for it, I could sure use the extra cash, but for some reason the market doesn't agree. So $995 it is.

BTW, cleaning women here are quite often white-skinned eastern European (esp. Polish and Russian) immigrants, in numbers disproportionate to the population as a whole. So beat your racism drum somewhere else.

 

[WildCat]

It's absurd. I've been pumping gas since I was a child. The only "training" I ever had was my mom saying "squeeze the thing under the handle".

Well you must have a special gift. If I had a dime for every time I accidentally filled the washer fluid reservoir w/ gasoline I'd be a rich man. But I'm almost through w/ my 6 year training course, I can even turn the pump on by myself most times now!

 

[Esperdome]

The joke may be on the college educated.

With more people going to four year schools, and a much greater instance of white collar jobs going overseas, skilled craftsmen jobs are becoming more needed, (can't easily be outsourced).

Some economists predict high unemployment for the B.A. grads and six digit incomes for craftsmen.

By the way, I make over four times MW, with benefits more than five times, but at one time $3.35/hr was all I made. In fact, when I first started working for my parents it was for $0.25/hour. Its odd for me to think I make nearly 100 times that now.(way more on overtime)

IMO, if you don't pay people a living wage, ( whether they earn it or not), don't be surprised when crime takes over your neighborhood. Pay them to be usefull instead of paying to keep them locked up.

P.S. I tend to tip heavy in the service arena, waitstaff and others. but I see that as a dying trend down here in Houston.

 

[The Atheist]

And your stuff falls mostly into the former category.

Sorry; low-hanging fruit....

Funny, I see yours in exactly the same way.

You're wrong. "Everybody knows" it's impossible to support oneself on minimum wage, never mind a family.

Well, I guess your "everybody" must be wrong, because it happens. Ask for evidence if you wish.

Eight-foot tall straw man wearing straw clothing and standing on a straw platform. Nobody claims those jobs aren't physically demanding. But that's not the point. The value of work - the value of anything - is what someone is willing to pay for it. Right or wrong, society says being an employment recruiter is more valuable than cleaning bedpans. It says being a professional athlete is more valuable than being a recruiter, and being Oprah Winfrey is more valuable than just about anything.

I see you're very adept at missing the point entirely, but I guess, that's life; some people can read, others can't - a surprising number of them post here. Let me try again so you don't miss the actual point, or add in arguments which aren't mine. I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT EVERYONE BE PAID THE SAME. I AM SAYING THAT MINIMUM WAGES ARE TOO LOW.

Is that simple enough for you?

I doubt you're unaware that some people don't even have the protection of a minimum wage in this world. Those people often earn a buck a day, or even less. True market forces at work.[/QUOTE]

 

[Mycroft]

But that's what minimum wage laws do. Supply and demand? The hell with that - everyone's work is worth at least $5.15 an hour. You know and I know that's not true.

Actually, it is true. I can't get my lawn mowed for $5.15 an hour.

The free market is a wonderful thing, and I certainly don't mind that professional athletes and Oprah make as much as they do. At the same time some regulation is in order.

 

[shuize]

I guess your "everybody" must be wrong, because it happens. Ask for evidence if you wish.

Good to know. Now the next time some crybaby claims "it's just not possible to support a family on minimum wage," I can tell them they're full of sh't.

 

[The Atheist]

Good to know. Now the next time some crybaby claims "it's just not possible to support a family on minimum wage," I can tell them they're full of sh't.

Only if they live in NZ, work 60 or more hours per week and are able to access subsidised housing.

 

[shuize]

Well, I guess your "everybody" must be wrong, because it happens. Ask for evidence if you wish.

Only if they live in NZ, work 60 or more hours per week and are able to access subsidised housing.

Are you having a debate with yourself? Let us know who wins.

 

[The Atheist]

Are you having a debate with yourself?

No, I'm just making sure you were aware that my examples were based in NZ. Conditions obviously aren't the same everywhere, as I keep pointing out, more than half the world's population doesn't have the luxury of a minimum wage at all.

 

[Tony]

Are you having a debate with yourself? Let us know who wins.

The guy is from New Zealand. Isn't it obvious that he'd bring a New Zealander's perspective and knowledge to the table?

 

[Daylight]

Frankly, I don't think that's right; teachers should make more money than football players. I'm sure a lot of people agree with me in principle, but we all know teachers don't get paid what they should. Maybe we should have a wages and salary czar who would set the price of labor.

In a way, yes.

I agree teacher salaries are too low. Wouldn’t you agree this is a good indicator that something in society is broken? Or an abuse is taking place somewhere in the system?

 

[BPSCG]

Good to know. Now the next time some crybaby claims "it's just not possible to support a family on minimum wage," I can tell them they're full of sh't.

Only if they live in NZ, work 60 or more hours per week and are able to access subsidised housing.

Well, if you can support a family working 60 hours a week at minimum wage, it must surely be possible to support yourself working just 40 at minimum wage.

Getting married? If you can't support yourself and your wife on minimum wage, maybe she should work too, hm?

Or else maybe you should get the training to do work that pays more than minimum. How about one of you works that 60 hours a week while the other one gets the training? Then swap places after the trained spouse gets the better job?

 

[BPSCG]

No, I'm just making sure you were aware that my examples were based in NZ. Conditions obviously aren't the same everywhere, as I keep pointing out, more than half the world's population doesn't have the luxury of a minimum wage at all.

Half the world's population doesn't have the benefit of liberal democracy that makes a minimum wage even a remote possibility, so this point is a non-starter.

Why do you dismiss shuize's post by pointing out that you're only talking about NZ, then proceed to drag half the rest of world's population into it?

 

[BPSCG]

I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT EVERYONE BE PAID THE SAME. I AM SAYING THAT MINIMUM WAGES ARE TOO LOW.

Is that simple enough for you?

No. That's like saying my feet are too big, or your house is too short.

Minimum wages are too low for what?