Myth Pro and Con about the Minimum Wage

I think we agree. I used felony gun charge because I believe you can get a felony conviction for simple possession (not even use, I may be wrong on this and if so I apologize). So pull a stupid move and get pulled over in a car with a gun in it..BAM felony conviction. I am not defending it as the brightest thing in the world to do but I have seen smart kids do stupider things than that..

I got a nice combo on my block of lexus driving dealers and hard working single parents and good kids...Its ashame that the good kids have the harder road ahead of them...

I'm sure we agree, but I'm very hesitant (living in an area plagued by gangs) to chalk up anyone guilty of a gun crime as relatively innocent. Unless the person had an unloaded gun in a locked case and had plenty of paper silhouette targets with him, I would immediately be suspicious of anyone who carried a gun unless he had a permit for it, or a job that required the protection.
 
I'm a self-employed artist - which translates to around minimum wage (the art market is severely hampered by the economy - when people can't afford food, rent and gasoline they don't have money to spend on art).

The job market for anything other than medical professionals here is almost non-existant. The only industry around is the Defense industry (been there, done that) and the local university (been there, done that) which tend to hire only temporary workers. What is better? Working a temporary job for fair money (and long periods between jobs) or working a permanent job for minimum wage?
So you're hovering around minimum wage by choice. That's close enough to "lazy" for me.

(For the record, I don't think artists are quite as retarded as Philosophy Ph.d. students -- I mean artists at least have some prospect of supporting themselves, right?)

More power to you though. And to everyone else who stays at minimum wage through lack of motivation (or in your case, conscious choice). After all, someone's got to flip the hamburgers.

* ETA : props to artists.
 
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Shuize.

In my humble opinion you are hopeless.

You implied me being a bartender was do to lack of education.
You called Mephatiso lazy for choosing to be an artist
and Philosophy PhDs' retarded.

What great contribution are you providing to this society that allows you to sit in such a glass house with a bucket of stones?


BTW I will put up a good Friday night in bar tips against a lot of typical salaries anyday...
 
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Shuize.

In my humble opinion you are hopeless.

You implied me be a bartender was do to lack of education.
The jokes just seem to write themselves.

You called Mephatiso lazy for choosing to be an artist
It falls in the lack of motivation category. He could make more than minimum wage if he wished.

and Philosophy PhDs' retarded.
Yes, well ... come on ... have you ever met any Philosophy Ph.d.s?

What great contribution are you providing to this society that allows you to sit in such a glass house with a bucket of stones?
As I said, feel free to PM me.
 
Have you never heard of student loans? Why people don't take advantage of such opportunities is beyond me.

Maybe because they're busy working two jobs to feed their family, pay the rent and the utilities, put gasoline in the car in order to go to work, and paying overwhelming prices for medicine. When can they attend school if they're already working from 7:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m.

I amazes me that it all seems so simple to you, but as slingblade pointed out, you're obviously pretty young.
 
The jokes just seem to write themselves.

Jeez

Me BEING a bartender. I am sorry I am typing to the word police I will fall in line.

I have no desire to hear about things in PM if you have such a great story share it. I am starting to think your great contributions to society are a farce.
 
So you're hovering around minimum wage by choice. That's close enough to "lazy" for me.

You're mistaken if you think I'd rather NOT make more money. Art is a luxury in times like these. As for lazy - I work an average of 14 hours a day, so just because I'm not a capitalist doesn't mean I'm not motivated.


(For the record, I don't think artists are quite as retarded as Philosophy Ph.d. students -- I mean artists at least have some prospect of supporting themselves, right?)

Well thanks for that (I think), but the prospects of supporting myself depends more on the economy than the talent. I could be Michael-fricken-angelo, but if my locale can't support the art, I don't get the money. Consequently, I sell for what I can make.


More power to you though. And to everyone else who stays at minimum wage through lack of motivation (or in your case, conscious choice). After all, someone's got to flip the hamburgers.

Thank you for noticing that it's a conscious choice - I've had my share of backstabbing, office politics, idiot bosses, inept managers, petty complaints and religious, rednecks in the workplace (the defense industry is full of them), inequal pay, overtime, and racial prejudice.


* ETA : props to artists.

Yes, props to artists - we aren't quite as retarded as Philosophers.
 
Maybe because they're busy working two jobs to feed their family, pay the rent and the utilities, put gasoline in the car in order to go to work, and paying overwhelming prices for medicine. When can they attend school when they're choosing to work from 7:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m.
Fixed.

Student loans also cover cost of living. Mine did.

If I had the choice of working from 7:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. for minimum wage or attending school to better my chances for a non-minimum wage future, I know what I would do.

Oh, wait. I did.

I amazes me that it all seems so simple to you, but as slingblade pointed out, you're obviously pretty young.
I don't know what you consider young. But it amazes me that people choose to make things so difficult for themselves and not take advantage of the opportunities that are right in front of their faces.
 
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[piling on]
Actually, it should be "...my being a bartender..." :duck:
[/piling on]
Carry on.

Ohhh tonight is definitely out now :)

Has a feeling this forum will be good for my lazy grammar style.
 
Student loans also cover cost of living. Mine did.

Yes, but student loans cover the cost of living for the student and NOT for his family. I'm assuming that you weren't a single parent while you attended school.

Explain to me how it's possible for a single-mother of two to get a better-than-minimum wage job while working, caring for her children and being able to afford adequate child-care? Throw on top of that tuition, the cost of books, lab fees, etc.

The government doesn't support anyone while they go to school (that's not what student loans are for, right?), but raising the minimum wage might help her better support herself while she goes to school.
 
the reason I have in the past supported the minimum wage was more of the 'it increases the overall wealth of those most likely to spend it' variety, which for obvious reasons is most likely not to be the case. in recent years it seems that the cost of things is based upon, 'what the market will bear', which has always been a strong determinant of pricing, and therefore an increase in ages may not lead to an increase in overall wealth.

Common misconception on the "what the market will bear" part. That pricing theory doesn't pass the diamond water paradox at all.

Let's suppose we have a competitve market. Company A tries to charge a very high price (whatever the market will bear, whatever that means, exactly). Companies B, C, D, E... will all undercut them. In short you've left out the supply side of supply and demand.

Now let's suppose we have a monopolistic industry. This would be closer to your ideas. We have ONLY company A producing the good or service. Now, they can't be undercut. So do they raise their prices? Oh, yes! But to "whatever the market will bear?" Well, I don't know what that phrase means. But like any company a monopoly is a profit maximizer. And whatever they produce follows the Law of Demand (which says that as the price rises the quantity demanded falls.) In otherwords, as they raise prices they sell fewer. Of course the per unit profit increases. This is a simple optimization problem. I can't SOLVE it without knowing the marginal costs for the production as well as the shape of the demand curve. But the company is still restrained by prices. And that's when it's a monopolistic (read non-free market) scenario.

This is a gem of humor, how many people criticize psychology and the field of mental health on a daily basis? How many people try to add moral elements to all sorts of science.

And do you think such critisisms are valid? By "we," I meant we in these forums. I am aware that society at large criteques science and scientific conclusions with non-scientific reasons. But aren't we supposed to act differently in that regard?

The concensus with any group of people is often not determined by what is rational, but by what is powerful, benefits them or is the vogue.

You misunderstand rational as defined by economists. Rational behavior for individuals is that which maximizes expected utility. Which is basically what you said (power, benifits them personally, etc.)

Aaron
 
The sad fact is, there are plenty of HONEST, hard-working kids out there who get stuck in minimum wage simply because they're NOT willing to sell cocaine, meth or heroin. I've always asserted that the "drug problem" is more of an economic problem than an addiction problem. If you're an impressionable youth living in poverty which would you choose; flipping burgers for minimum wage or driving around in a BMW selling crack?

Depends what you want. Flipping burgers actually pays better than selling crack. Or didn't you know that?

So why DOES anyone sell crack on the corner instead of flipping burgers? The real answer isn't the money, because they don't make as much money, and that's why they pretty much all live with their parents. The real answer is status. That's a cultural problem, not an economic one.
 
Well said (not bad for rambling!). I'm actually for an increase of the current federal MW. But that doesn't mean I don't know it will most likely cause an immediate hike in unemployment. I get more than a little upset at folks who seem to think that just because you favor a minimum wage hike, you must never have taken an econ class.
With the flipside being that other people (in this thread no less, it seems) seem to think that if you oppose a minimum wage hike, you are a heartless bastard that doesn't care about those less well off.

The minimum wage is just a political football. Raising it will help out those who can keep their job, put others out of a job, and probably increase the number of those taking "under the table" jobs. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it, but at least try to make a rational assessment of the costs and benefits.

Also, it has been pointed out before, the Earned Income Tax credit is a better way to fight poverty. As HarryKeogh pointed out in his link, only 0.7% actually make minimum wage, with a good proportion of those being teenagers that are probably using the money to save up for a PS3 (although I could be wrong, they may be helping out their family).
 
It's BS, not science.

You believe this of course. And so that is why you would like the folks in charge of Austraila's money supply to have their formal education in Electrical Engineering. The Banks are all run by clothing designers. You personally only higher bakers to manage your retirement funds. And your company uses fortune tellers to forcast future market conditions.

Really what we economists spend all our time doing is telling jokes and collecting big checks from thoses firms crazy enough to hire us instead of ball players.

Aaron
 
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I work an average of 14 hours a day, so just because I'm not a capitalist doesn't mean I'm not motivated.
For someone who works an average of 14 hours a day, you sure find a lot of time to post on message boards.

Yes, but student loans cover the cost of living for the student and NOT for his family. I'm assuming that you weren't a single parent while you attended school.
As a matter of fact, I was married in graduate school. My student loans supported us both as my wife was a foreign national studying English at the time -- no student loans for her.

Explain to me how it's possible for a single-mother of two to get a better-than-minimum wage job while working, caring for her children and being able to afford adequate child-care? Throw on top of that tuition, the cost of books, lab fees, etc.
It sounds to me like you're overcomplicating the equation again. First, in my opinion, it is not wise to have children before you are able to provide for them. But setting that aside for the moment, she is going to need child-care whether she's working or attending school. My advice would be for someone in her situation to concentrate on school full time and take out student loans for the cost of living. As long as she's not majoring in either art or philosophy, I think the lending institutions would cover tuition, books, lab fees, etc. Mine did.
 
Common misconception on the "what the market will bear" part. That pricing theory doesn't pass the diamond water paradox at all.

[snip]

Now let's suppose we have a monopolistic industry. This would be closer to your ideas. We have ONLY company A producing the good or service. Now, they can't be undercut. So do they raise their prices? Oh, yes! But to "whatever the market will bear?" Well, I don't know what that phrase means. But like any company a monopoly is a profit maximizer.

Whether you are the sole supplier of a good/service or not, the phrase (IMHO) means there will be a maximum profit one can gain as the buyers will pay only so much (unless you are the only one selling something that everyone must have, regardless). At a low price you will have everyone beating a path to your door --- but profits on each sale will be minute. With a high price, the profit may be great --- but you will have too few sales to make it worthwhile. So you pick (or experiment with) an optimum price that will generate the most profit. With competition, this price point will likely be lower than a monopoly --- but it will always exist.
 
Depends what you want. Flipping burgers actually pays better than selling crack. Or didn't you know that?

So why DOES anyone sell crack on the corner instead of flipping burgers? The real answer isn't the money, because they don't make as much money, and that's why they pretty much all live with their parents. The real answer is status. That's a cultural problem, not an economic one.
Someone's read Freakonomics.
 

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