Myth Pro and Con about the Minimum Wage

[The Atheist]

To answer a rhetorical question with another one, how many people get paid the minimum wage who don't deserve even that? Why should they get paid more than they are worth?

Well, I've heard some pretty awful opinion on this subject and I've seen a bit here, but that just about takes the biscuit.

They muck up filling your LPG cylinder. Do it yourself, you arrogant poofter! Oh, but poor baby would probably get his little handies dirty. If you ever wake up from your masturbatory alpha-daydream, you need to kneel down and offer prayers of thanks to the good lord above that he gave you the brain, the motivation, the confidence and the ability to do more than a crap job where you get abused by those with higher intellectually ability than yourself. Jeez, and people call me arrogant.

Chortle, chortle, must be time to crack a trailer-home joke, what?

There are a couple of others who can share in that post with you, BP, I just can't be bothered listing them all.

(Sorry, slingblade, I see your restraint, but on this subject, I can't find mine. Cheers.)

 

[Dancing David]

That's a management issue, not an economic one.

It is in response to the 'people who earn minimum wage don't deserve a raise" sentiment.

So I take it it is not an economic issue when corpaorate boards raise the salaries of people who don't deserve it? That would be a governance issue? Just trying to understand the scope of the word economic, I can understand that things that effect the economy might not be economic.

 

[Dancing David]

To answer a rhetorical question with another one, how many people get paid the minimum wage who don't deserve even that? Why should they get paid more than they are worth?

And if you don't think it's a substantial number, try getting a replacement LP tank for your grille at my local Home Depot with me sometime.

As I said desreve being the key word, I don't recall saying my own preference. So this is another declaration of the "There are people who deserve a minimum wage" myth.

But there are plenty of other people who don't make the minimum wage that don't meeet the criteria "get paid more than they are worth". I am not sure that all salaries reflect the 'worth' of the person's labor. I think every one has had experience where someone gets a promotion or a raise or even a job based upon influence ratyher than worth.

So is pay in a free market always going to be based upon 'worth' to the corporate bottom line?

 

[Dancing David]

Let me answer this silliness with a movie quote: "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

As BPSG already pointed out, if we paid people under the touchy feely category of "deserve" a lot of them would end up getting less than minimum wage.

See, in the real world, people get paid exactly what they're worth. How do we know how much that is? Easy. It's exactly the amount a willing employee agrees to work for and a willing employer agrees to pay. "Oh, no, man. I'm really worth more than minimum wage," you say? Great, feel free go out and find an employer willing to pay you more.

But why an employer should have to pay someone who slept through school any more than the market wage -- the price at which other unskilled workers are willing to do the same job -- to push a mop around is beyond me. Oh, wait. I forgot. Because they need it. That makes all the difference.

You know what I need? A blowjob. This very minute. So I think I'll demand Natalie Portman hop over and give me one.

I understand your point, but to say that in the 'real' worl people get paid what they are worth is foolish as well, I have seen many people promoted to much higher wage scales because of family connections, or friendship or even outright brown nosing, who were in fact detrimental to the corporate bottom line. So the argument that worth determines wages is not an exact one.

 

[Dancing David]

Obviously "middle class" is not well defined. But if we're restricting ourself to the USA, your statement is patently false. The birth rate in the US (as well as all developed nations) is below replacement level and falling. This is happening specifically because we all all becoming richer in real terms. Children are "inferior goods." That is, all else held equal, the richer you are the fewer children you have.

As an aside, the tired phrase, "the rich become richer and the poor become poorer" has never been true. It should be "the rich become richer and the poor become richer, but the rich become even more richer much faster."

Aaron

Well, duh.

The middle class is having more kids, at least anecdotaly, in the 1980s most were having one or two, but now many are having more or adopting and fostering.

So both true and both false.

 

[Dancing David]

So the government does a lot of dumb things, what's one more is your line of reasoning?

Aaron

Well dumb counters dumd does it not, or does it just make us all dumber. It just seems that ceratin dumb ideas have more power in the government than others, perhaps those dumb ideas that benefit the powerful.

I don't recall saying that I can come up with good reasons to support increasing the minimum wage, that seems to be an assumption around here. More psychics powers or did I touch a religous nerve. Not in you, your questions don't seem to involve WSJ thumping intensity.

 

[Dancing David]

Just me rambling on my meta thoughts on this:

My personal belief in why people support minimum wage (and it is widely supported) is a belief in "fairness." Economists have historically ignored the whole concept of fairness. But I think the results of The Ultimatum Game" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game may be changing that. But as with the results of "The Ultimatum Game" I fear that this fairness notion often gets in the way of optimal/rational results.

I'm lothe to give up the rationality assumption of economics (there are solutions for "The Ultimatum Game" that resolve with the rationality assumption). My personal beliefs are that most people are ill-informed in the economic reprocussions of policy decisions. Why would they be informed, after all? And when that happens this emotional ties to the fairness concept kick in.

For those who are honestly seeking answers, the data is available. This is science, after all. It's not hard, cold science. But it is science. Economists hypothesize models, then test the models. Then when questions like "what would happen if we raised the minimum wage" we can test such things with the models. Of course models are sometimes wrong from over simplification. But it's all about improving those models. Adam Smith published his "Wealth of Nations" over 200 years ago. We've had time to refine the models. There are lots of good scientists investigating these questions.

Unlike most political decisions like "would sealing the border with Mexico be a good idea" which are unanswerable, questions like "what would happen if we raised the minimum wage" we have answers to. Of course, that's not quite the same as "would it be a good idea?"

We don't arm chair critize other sciences. If you want to disagree with a concensus of economists, you'd better have some dang perswaysive reasons that aren't just appeals to emotion.

Aaron

the reason I have in the past supported the minimum wage was more of the 'it increases the overall wealth of those most likely to spend it' variety, which for obvious reasons is most likely not to be the case. in recent years it seems that the cost of things is based upon, 'what the market will bear', which has always been a strong determinant of pricing, and therefore an increase in ages may not lead to an increase in overall wealth.

We don't arm chair critize other sciences. If you want to disagree with a concensus of economists, you'd better have some dang perswaysive reasons that aren't just appeals to emotion.

This is a gem of humor, how many people criticize psychology and the field of mental health on a daily basis? How many people try to add moral elements to all sorts of science.

The concensus with any group of people is often not determined by what is rational, but by what is powerful, benefits them or is the vogue.

 

[gnome]

No one proposes it, that's true. But why DON'T minimum wage activists propose it? If they honestly believe raising the minimum wage does not have a negative impact on employment, why not raise it to $35/hour, or $350/hour for that matter?

Aaron

Because they recongize that a small deviance from free market economics may achieve its goal without significant disruption, whereas a large deviation probably wouldn't?

 

[Dancing David]

If input costs go up, prices will have to go up also. If you can't raise the price, you'll eventually go out of business. And you call this a myth?

Not at all, but I have addressed that I was speaking of the absolutes used by many economic pundits. i am smarter than I spell.

You're starting to get it I think. You're right - expenses for a building can rise faster than rent. If this trend continues, you get lots of vacant lots and abandoned buildings. I can show you entire neighborhoods here in Chicago this has happened in. Now look at my above answer - if you have a business and input prices go up (such as wages) and you are unable to increase your prices to match, you will go out of business. And the jobs you provided will disappear.

I think you still need galsses.

There are other reasons that the builkdings are abandoned, such as the growth of suburbs and the movement of jobs and wages to the suburbs. So I would add that it was not just the rise in prices of maintaining housing but the movement of jobs to the suburbs.

The cost of miantaing property in ryral towns is very low, and they have deserted areas as well, based partly upon a population shift as well.

And where did I make any such claim?

I was calling Milton a wishful thinker.

Like your Nazi reference above?

Like a proposal to raise the minimum wage to $35?

And many union contracts (particularly among government workers) specify that a particular job pays min. wage + X, so in fact you can often affect the entire wage scale by raising minimum wage.

Ah, unions, another topic perhaps, like military contracts and no-bid contracts.

Hows the weather up in the great white north? Have the trees started to turn yet?

 

[Dancing David]

I'm betting you're young. It always seems to be the young.

If you have indeed graduated high school, do yourself a favor and leave it behind now. Also utilize a little critical thought and make yourself aware that lack of education is only one, and not a universal, reason for working a min. wage job.

Thanks. Because I'm really sick of being insulted in this fashion by children.

Well many have not lived through the 'miracle of the Regan economy'.

 

[Dancing David]

In contrast, Companies, for example, big and small, tend to focus on the bottom line for this years bonus for the execs.

Assuming they aren't just loading the sack with loot and running for the border!

 

[Daylight]

Minimum wage is an interesting concept.

What about a maximum wage law instead? We see companies’ layoff workers or outsource jobs, yet the employees that caused the layoff/outsourcing are the highest paid and get golden parachutes (for screwing up), while the people that did the work and met their performance criteria get nothing.

Maybe a maximum wage law would be a better solution?

 

[BPSCG]

It's generally considered to be a good idea to have an understanding of a situation before one ventures a rant about it.

They muck up filling your LPG cylinder. Do it yourself, you arrogant poofter!

Yes, perhaps that's the way it's done in New Zealand; not here. If you have an empty LP tank, you can't refill it yourself unless you happen to own a gas distributorship. You take it to your local mega-home improvement store, and they take it back from you and give you a filled replacement. The replacements are kept in a cage under lock and key.

Now, if Home Depot's "customer associate" whose job it is to carry the key around and unlock the cage can't be bothered to answer three successive storewide pages over the space of 15 minutes, should I:

1. Get a sledge hammer from the lawn and garden department and attack the locked cage with it until it yields its treasure, or;
2. Take my business elsewhere?

Being a poofter, I opted for #2. I'm sure you would have taken #1, but we can't all be working class heroes such as you.

Now, as for the guy with the key, I ask you: If this is typical of his work ethic, is he worth minimum wage?

 

[BPSCG]

Maybe a maximum wage law would be a better solution?

And how much should that maximum wage be?

 

[Mephisto]

Chortle, chortle, must be time to crack a trailer-home joke, what?

I think you'll have to rely on Mycroft to do that.

I wonder if everyone here arguing against raising the minimum wage will forego any raises for the next ten years - after all, they aren't providing any more services than they were previously so they don't deserve the raise.

 

[shuize]

I'm betting you're young. It always seems to be the young.

If you have indeed graduated high school, do yourself a favor and leave it behind now. Also utilize a little critical thought and make yourself aware that lack of education is only one, and not a universal, reason for working a min. wage job.

Thanks. Because I'm really sick of being insulted in this fashion by children.

Sure, lack of education is only one reason why someone might be stuck working a minimum wage job long term. Others include lack of marketable skills (which goes hand in hand with lack of education), lack of motivation (otherwise known as laziness) and retardation (which might be one of the few legitimate excuses for lack of education and lack of skills). Of course, that doesn't change the fact that if someone is not interested in acquiring the education or skills necessary to move beyond the exciting world of mop-technician, it's not the responsibility of the employer to pay that individual any more than someone else who is willing to do that very same job.

I'm not sure what my age has to do with anything. I'm merely stating the obvious.

 

[Mephisto]

I'm not sure what my age has to do with anything. I'm merely stating the obvious.

Heheh, so was Slingblade.

 

[Sally]

Sure, lack of education is only one reason why someone might be stuck working a minimum wage job long term. Others include lack of marketable skills (which goes hand in hand with lack of education), lack of motivation (otherwise known as laziness) and retardation (which might be one of the few legitimate excuses for lack of education and lack of skills). Of course, that doesn't change the fact that if someone is not interested in aquiring the education or skills necessary to move beyond the exciting world of mop-technician, it's not the responsibility of the employer to pay that individual any more than someone else who is willing to do that very same job.

I'm not sure what my age has to do with anything. I'm merely stating the obvious.

Your generalizations are sickening.

There are numerous factors that will keep someone at a minimum wage job that don’t even touch on the things you discussed.


For example:

A young man grows up in a rough neighborhood manages to attend school do pretty good but because of lack of parental guidance he falls in with the wrong crowd. Does some dumb stuff bam at 18 gets himself a felony convection (gun charges or something...). Does his time reads a lot gets his diploma.

Suddenly back in the real world you have an intelligent, strong, hard worker with a felony conviction that can not get himself out of minimum wage.

Which one of your generalizations are you going to label him? Dumb? Lazy? Retarded?

Low paying jobs are a cyclical problem that has a lot to do with class you were brought up in than any other factors...

 

[Just thinking]

.... Now, if Home Depot's "customer associate" whose job it is to carry the key around and unlock the cage can't be bothered to answer three successive storewide pages over the space of 15 minutes, should I:

1. Get a sledge hammer from the lawn and garden department and attack the locked cage with it until it yields its treasure, or;
2. Take my business elsewhere?

Being a poofter, I opted for #2. I'm sure you would have taken #1, but we can't all be working class heroes such as you.

OMG!!! That exact scenario just happened to me about two weeks ago --- I went over to the person in the gardening department and asked to have two empty tanks replaced with full ones. He had to call for the "key person". As we waited (and waited), I asked him "Why is the key (the key that only opens the propane tank cage) not here with the person in the garden department?" He had no answer --- but did come to realize how foolish it seemed to be otherwise. Finally, after the "key person" came and opened the cage, I asked if it should be left here in this department. "Can't do that", was the reply. "Why not?" Well, that had no answer from this person as well --- just a shrug. Now, it may not be their fault of all this ... but somewhere someone is being paid for these types of decisions, and I assure you, this type of reasoning is not limited to propane tank cages.

And if you really want to start pulling your hair out ... come out my way and get your gasoline pumped here.

 

[shuize]

Your generalizations are sickening.

There are numerous factors that will keep someone at a minimum wage job that don’t even touch on the things you discussed.

For example:

A young man grows up in a rough neighborhood manages to attend school do pretty good but because of lack of parental guidance he falls in with the wrong crowd. Does some dumb stuff bam at 18 gets himself a felony convection (gun charges or something...). Does his time reads a lot gets his diploma.

Suddenly back in the real world you have an intelligent, strong, hard worker with a felony conviction that can not get himself out of minimum wage.

Which one of your generalizations are you going to label him? Dumb? Lazy? Retarded?

First of all, it's conviction. "Convection" involves the transfer of heat.

Second, I wouldn't exactly call a felony conviction smart.

Third, it depends how long he stays in his minimum wage job. If it's permanent, then yes, he's an idiot. Especially given your facts that he's supposedly intelligent, strong and a hard worker.

*Edited to tone down the sarcasm.