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Mysterious QiGong from China

Shine Sun

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Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
92
Perhaps, you have not heard QiGong, but I think it is possible that you have heard meditation. QiGong is one kind of meditation.

What is the Qi? The meaning of the Chinese word "Qi" is air. It means a kind of thing from which the universe was derived and every thing consists of Qi. I think it is electromagnetic field and electromagnetic wave.

Some people can sight the Qi, including me. The appearance of the Qi is like smoke or fog or the like when the Qi comes out of human body at some strong level. The Qi of human body may become very strong by proper training. Some people use it to heal some diseases. How to demonstrate it? I designed two kinds of tests to demonstrate it. Test 1 is Long Distance Qi Transfer (LDQT); Test 2 is Qi Extracting (QiE). As for LDQT, I can cause person to get some feelings at distance of 10 kms or above. Generally, the feelings include good feelings, cool, warm, tingle,jump,touch,liquid flowing, a little swirl and extension and so on. As for QiE, I can extract out the Qi of a person to a distance of 1 meter at least without help of any tool. Some people can sight it.

What is the Qi of human body? It is air, electromagnetic field, electromagnetic wave, soul, spirit? I don't know. After all, it is a part of human body.

In 5000 years history, Chinese have developed many methods to train the Qi of human body. The Qi plus the methods is called QiGong.

Do you think it is interesting of Qi and QiGong? If you do, I would like to explain them in detail.

QiGong Master from China: Shine Sun
 
Congratulations, it seems that you will be a million bucks richer if you apply for the prize. When do you apply?
 
Like steen said, this is exciting! Is your application already in?

Shine Sun said:
As for LDQT, I can cause person to get some feelings at distance of 10 kms or above. Generally, the feelings include good feelings, cool, warm, tingle,jump,touch,liquid flowing, a little swirl and extension and so on.
Click to expand...

Also, are you seeing anyone special?
 
Just to clarify your claim a little.

In the LDQT test you say that you can transfer your Qi to a target that is more than 10 kilometers away? And they get
the feelings include good feelings, cool, warm, tingle,jump,touch,liquid flowing, a little swirl and extension and so on.
Click to expand...

With the Qe experiment you take Qi from a person who is standing next to you.

What's the point to all this. If you have given me your Qi or taken some of mine what happens to me. Do I get sick? Depressed? Does my blood sugar level sudenly drop? How do those of us who can't see this part of our bodies know anything has happened?
 
Do you think it is interesting of Qi and QiGong? If you do, I would like to explain them in detail.
Click to expand...
We'd prefer you didn't start explaining it until after you have demonstrated it works.

Unless you want to hear all about my mechanism by which I float theough the air like a light leaf. It involves positrons, quantum physics and alternate dimensions - it's really exciting.
 
If that's the extent of this power, I don't see how it can be reliably tested.

Doesn't Randi have a correspondence going with someone in China trying to combat the rise of QiGong? Aren't they a bit cultish and such?
 
As a once practcing magician and a practicing martial artist for over 3 decades, so far I have not seen physical evidence of the existence of QI (Chi/Ki). The only possible existence of it per its term from a mental awareness of it. I think it is people being "psych-out".

I am looking to examine such "QI Gong Feats":

A.) Spear to throat

B.) Bed of nails/slab breaking-or any breaking

C.) Body being rolled over by vehicle

D.) Receiving punches to throat/neck

E.) Such feelings are self-induced per suggestion in the subconcious mind
 
well, I think I see a testable claim in test 2, though it depends on the specifics.

Can you explain exactly what Test 2 consists of? I don't want the 'how it works' explanation, just exactly how the test would be run, and what constitutes success and failure.

Oh, since you are new here, please understand that all discussions in these forums are for our amusement and education. No one besides Linda and Kramer speak for Randi, and no one besides Kramer or Randi is going to review/accept your application. So, if you want to chat about your tests, we welcome you. If you want to apply for the challenge, get in contact with Randi or Kramer. Nothing said in this or any other thread will have any bearing on your application. I say this because there have been misunderstandings in the past by people wondering why Randi himself is ignoring the posts. He doesn't read the forum much at all.
 
Actually QiGong has been widely known in Chinese history, especially in the martial arts. How it is beneficial to physical or mental health has all to do with it's meditative attributes. The other claimed benefits are all bogus. The feeling that most people get is that heating sensation when you're excited or when you're flexing your muscles. That cloudy/fog thing is the condensation that occurs when you sweat, or give off heat when you're exercising.

The fact that many of these practitioners feel more power, strength and believe they're invincible is because of this sensational feeling they've gained from meditating and using various movements to stretch the muscles and joints in order to engage in battle, or do demonstrations, such as breaking boards or bamboo sticks.

I've personally witnessed many feats of "superpower", as seen in martial arts shows like the Shaolin (even though they're fake, ie. they're really not the genuine shaolin monks, but rather guys with shaved heads who live around the temple).

The "person who lies on bed of nails w/o getting pierced" is easily replicated with someone who can balance carefully. Can anyone balance on just 1 nail?

Receiving punches to throat or spear to throat requires exact physical targetting because there's a specific place on the throat which can withstand such pressure and not break. Ask them to target the spear to their belly button or eyes. ^-^;;

Shine Sun knows all this, or is fooled by instructors who know this. All I can say is martial arts is just the difference between the "trained and the untrained" (Man on Fire)...nothing paranormal or superpowers about that.

GW!
 
Could you use this power to reliably detect the presence or absence of a person concealed by a screen and other forms of isolation (sound, vibration, etc)?

For example, you would try to extract their energy through this screen (same as clothing, less than a meter away) while being deprived of other senses that could tip off the persons presence. If you are unable to extract their Qi, you would know that they are absent. Repeat this many times, until your success rate has ruled out chance.

This is an experiment for other types of claims. I am hoping it might apply to your ability.

What do you think Shine Sun? Million for ya if it really is a paranormal power.
 
Ancient Chinese Mystical Feats like bed of nails, sledgehammer, spear to throat, etc., get a little deflated when a physics professor duplicates them all. :)

They are still very neat things though!
 
Dear all:

Thank you all very much! All of you have given me good comment.
I am pleased to talk with you.

Firstly, I want to modify the claims as follows:
Claim1, I can cause some persons to get some feelings at
distance of 10 kms or above.
Claim2, I can creat light band between me and some persons at distance of 1 meter to 100 meters without help of any tool. The appearance of the light band is like smoke or fog or the like. The light band can be sighted by some other people.

Do you think it is better? Please give comment. Thank you in advance.

Some of you know QiGong well than me, so it is not mysterious. But for soft QiGong, it seems no one knows here. QiGong includes 2 kinds of feats, soft QiGong and hard QiGong. What I play is soft QiGong. The meaning of Gong is "feat". so QiGong should be QiFeat, I think.

Yes, I want to win the prize. But I still have some difficulties.
For Claim1, I have done some tests in China. But the distance from China to USA or France or so on is too far, so I am not confident 100%. I need to do tests with you in advance.

The operation is very simple. I only need to know your name. I sit on bed and meditate your name. then our Qis will be connected. My Qi to you or your Qi to me, I think it depends on who is more healthy. We all will become medium healthy after experiment. If you have not recovery ability, don't do that. I think I am healthy, or I will be unable to transmit the Qi so far. So generally, the tests will be beneficial for you. Anyway, I found 2 side effects of QiGong:

1) The effect of acesodyne may be eliminated. So if you used acesodyne, you may feel pain again.
2) A little temporary swirl.

Another difficulty: Many people have same name, so my brain may be confused according to my own theory.

For claim2, obviously, it needs a lot of money.

Now, I hesitate to select which claim.

==============================================
skeptikat:

quote: "What's the point to all this. If you have given me your Qi or taken some of mine what happens to me. Do I get sick? Depressed? Does my blood sugar level sudenly drop? How do those of us who can't see this part of our bodies know anything has happened?"

Yes, maybe you get sick or depressed. But generally, the feelings should be good feelings for I am healthy. For blood sugar, I have no data. I think it is difficult to let other people to know anything has happened in your body unless medical examination.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------roger:

You want to know how claim2 will run. The following is :

Test protocol:
> For preliminary test:
> Step1, I select 5 persons at least who are easy to sight the light band in advance, I name the person ESLB (Easy Sight Light Band).
> Step2, I select 5 persons at least with whom I can creat light band easily in advance, I name the person ECLB (Easy Creat Light Band).
> Step3, I do the tests, I manage to creat light band between me and certain ECLB person. At the same time, the ESLB persons stand beside and sight.
>
> What will constitute the demonstration?
> Success:
> With one ECLB person, if one of the 5 ESLB persons sighted the light band. Then I success.
> If I success with one ECLB person of the 5, then I pass the preliminary test.
>
> Failure:
> With one ECLB person, if none of the 5 ESLB persons could sight the light band. Then I failed.
> With 5 ECLB persons, I all failed, then I failed the preliminary test.

The first step of training Qi is silence entering.

Your friend: Shine Sun
 
Shine Sun said:
Dear all:

Thank you all very much! All of you have given me good comment.
I am pleased to talk with you.

Firstly, I want to modify the claims as follows:
Claim1, I can cause some persons to get some feelings at
distance of 10 kms or above.
Claim2, I can creat light band between me and some persons at distance of 1 meter to 100 meters without help of any tool. The appearance of the light band is like smoke or fog or the like. The light band can be sighted by some other people.

Do you think it is better? Please give comment. Thank you in advance.

Some of you know QiGong well than me, so it is not mysterious. But for soft QiGong, it seems no one knows here. QiGong includes 2 kinds of feats, soft QiGong and hard QiGong. What I play is soft QiGong. The meaning of Gong is "feat". so QiGong should be QiFeat, I think.

Yes, I want to win the prize. But I still have some difficulties.
For Claim1, I have done some tests in China. But the distance from China to USA or France or so on is too far, so I am not confident 100%. I need to do tests with you in advance.

The operation is very simple. I only need to know your name. I sit on bed and meditate your name. then our Qis will be connected. My Qi to you or your Qi to me, I think it depends on who is more healthy. We all will become medium healthy after experiment. If you have not recovery ability, don't do that. I think I am healthy, or I will be unable to transmit the Qi so far. So generally, the tests will be beneficial for you. Anyway, I found 2 side effects of QiGong:

1) The effect of acesodyne may be eliminated. So if you used acesodyne, you may feel pain again.
2) A little temporary swirl.

Another difficulty: Many people have same name, so my brain may be confused according to my own theory.

For claim2, obviously, it needs a lot of money.

Now, I hesitate to select which claim.

==============================================
skeptikat:

quote: "What's the point to all this. If you have given me your Qi or taken some of mine what happens to me. Do I get sick? Depressed? Does my blood sugar level sudenly drop? How do those of us who can't see this part of our bodies know anything has happened?"

Yes, maybe you get sick or depressed. But generally, the feelings should be good feelings for I am healthy. For blood sugar, I have no data. I think it is difficult to let other people to know anything has happened in your body unless medical examination.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------roger:

You want to know how claim2 will run. The following is :

Test protocol:
> For preliminary test:
> Step1, I select 5 persons at least who are easy to sight the light band in advance, I name the person ESLB (Easy Sight Light Band).
> Step2, I select 5 persons at least with whom I can creat light band easily in advance, I name the person ECLB (Easy Creat Light Band).
> Step3, I do the tests, I manage to creat light band between me and certain ECLB person. At the same time, the ESLB persons stand beside and sight.
>
> What will constitute the demonstration?
> Success:
> With one ECLB person, if one of the 5 ESLB persons sighted the light band. Then I success.
> If I success with one ECLB person of the 5, then I pass the preliminary test.
>
> Failure:
> With one ECLB person, if none of the 5 ESLB persons could sight the light band. Then I failed.
> With 5 ECLB persons, I all failed, then I failed the preliminary test.

The first step of training Qi is silence entering.

Your friend: Shine Sun
Click to expand...

Not sure your "light band" test is going to be a runner if only certain people can see the light band and have to "judge" the result. It needs to be self evident.

Your other is a possibility however, projecting a "feeling". We give you a person's name selected at random from a "pool" of names. You send them the feeling. We ask each person if they had a "feeling" at the time you conducted the sending. We then repeat a number fo times to eliminate chance. This (for the preliminary at least) would not need to be done in the USA, I am sure the JREF will be able to locate somebody closer to you for the initial test.
 
Shine Sun said:

Test protocol:
> For preliminary test:
> Step1, I select 5 persons at least who are easy to sight the light band in advance, I name the person ESLB (Easy Sight Light Band).
> Step2, I select 5 persons at least with whom I can creat light band easily in advance, I name the person ECLB (Easy Creat Light Band).
> Step3, I do the tests, I manage to creat light band between me and certain ECLB person. At the same time, the ESLB persons stand beside and sight.
>
> What will constitute the demonstration?
> Success:
> With one ECLB person, if one of the 5 ESLB persons sighted the light band. Then I success.
> If I success with one ECLB person of the 5, then I pass the preliminary test.
>
> Failure:
> With one ECLB person, if none of the 5 ESLB persons could sight the light band. Then I failed.
> With 5 ECLB persons, I all failed, then I failed the preliminary test.

The first step of training Qi is silence entering.

Your friend: Shine Sun
Click to expand...

Step 1 and 3 can cause problems, because of the ability of humans to see somthing, if they think they should see something, although nothing is there.

How a solution could look like:
The solution could be that the 5 ESLBs can not see/hear,... each other or you or the ECLBs during test, they can only see the space between you and the ECLBs, which should be possible if you can have a distance of up to 100m.

There would have to be a time period to be agreed on thats long enough for you to do what you have to do and for the ESLBs to see the light band, something like 1 minute or so.
At the end of each time period each ESLB notes whether he has seen the light band. Then a new time period starts.
Important point is that prior to a time period its determined randomly whether or not you try to establish the light band and the ESLBs do not know whether you try or not.

If your ability works, there will be a significant difference in the number of ESLBs reporing they see something during the periods where you actually did something and the periods where you did nothing.
If the seeing of the light band is independent of whether you try something or not, then your ability does not work as you claimed and the test is failed(and this result would indicate, that the seeing of the light band is just the ESLBs wanting to see somethink they think must be there).

Carn

Added: comments from others welcome.
 
sf108,
Yes, the Shaolin Monks of today are NOTHING like when the development of Shaolin Zi. (Shaolin Temple)

Being a martial artist has made be to believe certain things. But being a skeptic, had me research and "open my eyes", long before the "almighty" internet.

I had a Eastern Religion professor in college. His specific study was Buddhism, thus was the course(s).

He gave me several Buddhist contacts all throughout the globe and mainly Asia. One thing is for sure, Shaolin is "over-dramatized".

Buddhist sutras indicate that monks in a monastary, such as Shaolin, allowed, or gave sanctuary to rebel fighters. Deguised in cognito as monks themselves, these rebel fighters would defend the temple.

Older monks allowd the youunger ones to partake in fighting methods for exercise. In one order, the higher monks/abbots, came to realize to dispell desires of physical confrontation, i.e., fighting. then to practice it extreme;y will diospell any desire to do so in the future.

This is what is also called the "physchological order of surfeit".

Now getting back to the demos. This is NOT my list for summition of a application. This is my list to see if anyone COULD explain or discuss how these performances are done.

I will start off with the "spear-to-throat"

The spear head is not a shaft type, like that of a pike. It is a bladed spear, flat with a point. Almost resembling a trowel. The flat-bladed section is carefully and strategically placed on the very top of the sternum, lower larnex area. The point is not actually "touching". With the aid of a trained assistant on the other end of the wooden shaft, both participants push on the spear. The pushing movement is a angular downward thrust, and NOT a straight-on/level horizontal one. The wooden shaft on the spear is long and flexible. It has to be, for if it was rigid and shorter, the spear could penetrate instead of "bowing".

My felloo magicians in my magician's guild had reproduced and performed this "illusion". No Chi there. Perhaps guts and practice.
Maybe Chi in this case is the ability to psych out the mind to perform such a silly feat.
 
I would modify this slightly.

Arrange that the testing runs are to happen at exactly 1 minute intervals. So over a 100 minute period, there will be 100 times when a test MIGHT be done. At each 1-minute interval, ring a bell or something, and the ESLB then checks very carefully to see if the light band is there or not, and the result recorded.

However, for each and every test, flip a coin: if it is heads, you do your thing with the ECLB. If it is tails, you do nothing at all. Most importantly, the ESLB does not know if you are doing your thing or not for each of the 100 tests.

So what will happen is that you will do 100 tests, of which, on average, half will be with you doing anything, and the other half will be you doing nothing. The ESLB does not know which were the tests when you were actually working with the ECLB, and s/he alone has to determine if there was any positive result for each test.

(I'm sure the statisticians will crucify me here, but...) A "chance" result - i.e. just guessing - is 50% correct. A "significant" result that would beat the 1:1000 odds required for the preliminary challenge would be a score much higher than that - somewhere about 85-90% (look, it's late at night, I don't want to think about maths just now, some stats guy just tell us, OK? :))

Objective, clear results, simple to do. Yes?
 
Zep said:
I would modify this slightly.
Most importantly, the ESLB does not know if you are doing your thing or not for each of the 100 tests.
Click to expand...

Problem is that Shine Sun will perform some mental thought pattern, that will show in his stance, mimic and so on and that could be noticed concious or subconciously by the ESLBs.

One solution is, as i suggested, to keep the ESLBs from seeing anyone else.

But the other more simpler solution for you, Shine Sun, to test whether you actually have a chance to pass the test, is to train before a mirror, that you can look like you are concentrating or whatever you have to do.
Then the next times you perform this feat, throw a coin beforehand and either perform normally or fake the performance. If the watchers/targets do not realize any difference between fake and real thing, then you can be certain that the watchers/targets just imagine seeing the light bend and that you have some talent in acting.
If they still see a light band, only when you realy perform, go on and apply, you then will either be one million richer or know that you are not good at faking your performance.

Carn
 
Carn said:
Problem is that Shine Sun will perform some mental thought pattern, that will show in his stance, mimic and so on and that could be noticed concious or subconciously by the ESLBs.

One solution is, as i suggested, to keep the ESLBs from seeing anyone else.
Carn
Click to expand...
Yes, the ESLB absolutely cannot be allowed to see either Shine Sun or the transmitter, with the former far more important. Another important factor is noise. One can imagine Shine Sun unconsciously producing more/less noise when trying to create the light bands, so sonic isolation is important.

Also, one can imagine that Shine Sun may not feel that he is successful each time he tries to recieve the Qi. Perhaps he should note which trials he thought was successful, and only perform the statistical analysis on those. I would consider this less important from a statistical point of view, but to remove all excuses. You know, after the test fails, he can't say, "well, it really wasn't working today, X interfered". But I don't know if he gets a 'sense' of whether he is succeeding or not - not trying to impose a requirement that he cannot achieve.


Shine Sun - If you are serious about this, I suggest testing yourself under these conditions prior to undertaking the challenge. I will be quite honest: I suspect you are mistaken about your ability, though I would love to be wrong. However, as you point out, the costs of undergoing the challenge are substantial given your distance from the States, and I'd hate to incite you to spending money needlessly. Only take the challenge if you are sure you can pass it.

We are concentrating on test 2 because test 1 is so vague. I should feel "better'? That entails judging and subjectivity, something that has to be removed from the test.


However, I'd like to suggest a third test. I don't know if you are capable of doing this, but if you are, it is a very cheap test to perform, and will be very convincing if you are able to pass it.

Test 3 assumes that you can 'feel' when Qi is being transferred either from you, or to you (I don't care which). It also assumes that Qi is only transferred between living objects, and has a limited range. If so:

Test 3:

There are two rooms, sonically shielded. You are in one. A number of trials are run. To try to project or receive Qi from the person in the second room. After how ever much time you need, you feel the Qi, and say a person is in the room, or don't feel the Qi, and say no person is in the room. Before each trial starts, a random number generator decides whether there should be a person in the room or not. If you can detect a person in that room above chance level, then you have proved your claim.


That may not fit exactly what you do, but I am trying to get you to think about how to devise a scientific test procedure. JREF will never accept a test that requires a Qi receiver to decide that they feel "better".
 
A quick question about test 1. If all you need is a name to target someone to transfer your Qi to how do you know you have the correct Mike Jones or Jon Smith? I don't see a problem with giving good feelings to every one with the same name, but it's hard to test.

Test 2 sounds more provable, and Test 3 is the easiest yet. To take the challange money you don't need an elaborate claim or test. You just have to prove that you have any ability that is outside of accepted science. While it may seem like a waste of time to use Qi to just verify if someone is indeed in the room, if you can do it 90% of the time it should be enough to win the JREF challange.
 
skeptikat said:
A quick question about test 1. If all you need is a name to target someone to transfer your Qi to how do you know you have the correct Mike Jones or Jon Smith? I don't see a problem with giving good feelings to every one with the same name, but it's hard to test.
Click to expand...

That's a funny one! That's the problem with skeptics, always finding ways to make sarcasm!

Anyway, leekunedo, the fact that most of us in this forum have an open mind and better observation skills shows how deceptive many practitioners of paranormal/superpower abilities can be. Or how foolish they are.

Although I do admit many feats such as breaking thick bamboo sticks on the head is nearly impossible for most of us, I believe it's just the matter of lifelong training. The "hardening of the body" from decades of exercise does make some martial artists to become incredibly immune to pain and suffering.

However, only some denominations of martial arts, such as the "yellow bamboo"? (lol) do claim to have incredible powers. I'm sure everyone has seen those videos of practitioners just doing a Street Fighter Hadoken to blow off 5 guys off their feet.

When I saw that...I felt shame for Bruce Lee. :(

GG.
 
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