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My Version of Atheism (long)

your shoe example is about methodology not epistemology, as in determining proper shoe size should we employ some measurement technique, a hunch, throw die, ask an Oracle etc. Now, in this thread I am reluctantly coming to the defense of religion only because no one else is willing, and when I use the term 'religion' I do not mean the bloated long-past their usefulness established religious bureaucracies, nor do I mean superstitions or relying on the testimony of others - what I mean is religion is to answer the inquiry 'what is real' or what is this 'substance' called reality . . . in this case religion sounds like science, except true religion also questions the foundational axioms of science.

EXCEPT there is already a name for thinking hard and honest about such questions. It's called philosophy. That's really what you get, once you strip away the superstition, and the blindly trusting others, and really the parts where that inquiry is silenced rather than pursued.

There's no need to blur and equivocate the two. I mean it's like saying that I like ducks, but I don't mean the kind with flat feet that swim, I mean those with four legs, fur, who catch mice and meow and purr. That's my TRUE ducks. Well, no, there's already a perfectly good word for those, no need to redefine ducks :p

But basically, yes, skipping past the needless lexical redefinition, philosophy IS a lot more useful than religion. And, yes, it is related to science.
 
At the very least it strikes me that an honestly-held disbelief would be more-favorably received by a creator god than would a more-cynical "faith" professed for the sake of playing it safe or hedging a bet (Pascal's Wager).



This is, almost word-for-word, something I've said myself. I could fake belief so well that no one would ever know I was faking it, but if god does exist, he'd know. Any god who would favor a dishonest display of belief over honest skepticism isn't worthy of my worship, even if I'm just faking it!
 
This is, almost word-for-word, something I've said myself. I could fake belief so well that no one would ever know I was faking it, but if god does exist, he'd know. Any god who would favor a dishonest display of belief over honest skepticism isn't worthy of my worship, even if I'm just faking it!

William James said, in an article that is somewhat related to the Wager, one can fake it until he actually believes. I think this is true. Even though it is cynical fakery out of mere self-interest at the beginning, we can, over time, will to believe. (The Will to Believe is the name of the article. I think it's quite good, personally.)

To be sure, this is a claim about how human psychology works, and James didn't really give evidence. Nonetheless, I do think that people can, eventually, adopt certain beliefs by choice. (Those beliefs must match the criteria described in the article. No one is saying that I can, over time, convince myself that 2+2=5, and no one is necessarily saying that you can, over time, convince yourself that God exists. It rather depends on your prior state of (dis)belief.)
 
This is, almost word-for-word, something I've said myself. I could fake belief so well that no one would ever know I was faking it, but if god does exist, he'd know. Any god who would favor a dishonest display of belief over honest skepticism isn't worthy of my worship, even if I'm just faking it!

This assumes that the god of the Universe thinks rationally. Based on what is reported in the Bible, that is demonstrably false. You're going to burn forever. :cool:.
 
Well, that's kinda the point. I'd be more inclined to accept a powerful and intelligent god (I'll even dispense with the 'omni' parts) that actually acts the part.

Because, honestly, fantasizing about trials and punishment for those who disbelieve is more like the frustrated flailings of an impotent crackpot. There's a reason it's even on the crackpot index. That's the kind of thing frustrated and deranged PEOPLE fantasize, when they're met with derision and can't support their claims.

And we know even from Paul that the early Christians were met with such derision. Paul addresses exactly the problem that educated people were calling his stuff and his followers stupid. So then we get a religion where theologians fantasize about those who disbelieve them being brought to trial by God and ruing the day when they disbelieved crackpots X, Y and Z.

That's really how the whole thing reads. That's not convincing me that there's a powerful and knowing God that came up with that. That's a frustrated crackpot that came up with that. Not that that proves that it's not a god, but, frankly, trusting in a deranged crackpot god isn't more appealing anyway.

Now think about how you actually do act towards things that are far below your power and knowledge. Would you have fantasies of eternal torment about the ants in an ant farm, for not digging tunnels in the shape of you, to honour you? Assuming you're not deranged, why would you?

If you do have the superior power and the superior knowledge, such petty grudges against little beings that can't even understand you are pointless. There's no challenge and no achievement in squashing a few of them to show them who's the big guy. Of course you are. Why would you even need to prove it? And to what end?

I think the few deranged ones who find some accomplishment in kicking the dog, so to speak, in the end just show their being not just petty or deranged, but the kind of frustrated powerless idiot for whom that's all the power over someone they'll ever have.

So give me a god that maybe takes the time to patiently explain things like to a toddler when he's in the mood, and maybe couldn't give less of a crap if he were the god of constipation the rest of the time, and yeah, I might find that one plausible. Maybe not have faith without evidence, mind you, but at least it wouldn't trip my suspension of disbelief.
 
Unfalsifiable doesn't mean proven true, though. It just means there is no way to get "no" for an answer to any prediction.

And frankly, most gods (in fact, all I can think of, off the top of my head) were always unfalsifiable. If you get a good flood, it's a blessing from Osiris, if not, you've not been devout enough. If you get a victory, Mars was on your side, if not, well, you didn't deserve the god's attention. If you get a good crop, your prayers to Thor The Hallower have been answered, and if a lightning burns your barn down, well, he was fighting some frost giants, and that's more important than your winter supplies. If you get good stuff happening, you have the grace of YHWH, if not, he's testing your faith, a la Job. Or he works in mysterious ways. Etc.

It's like nailing Jello to a wall, to borrow Randi's expession. Religion doesn't claim any kind of determinism, so you can't make a test where the result would be (according to the religion) "nope, there's no god."

Of course, the corollary is that anything where you can't get "no" for an answer, makes a "yes" just as meaningless. It's a world where the existence or non-existence of said deity (or whatever entity one proposes) are indistinguishable, so there is no reason to assume their existence. Occam says go without the extra entity, basically.
 
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Recently, I got caught up in a religious discussion on a gun forum (!). That started me working on the following essay, something I'd been planning to do but it took the forum to get me started. Thought I'd put it up here, my "home forum" (warning, it's a little more than two typewritten pages) and see what happens.
Here 'tis:

1st. It is axiomatic that it's impossible to prove a negative ("there is no god"), so demanding that someone do so is inherently a dishonest deflection of the conversation.

2nd. There is no objective evidence of the workings of a super-being in nature. All observable phenomena can be explained through natural means; where natural explanations suffice, supernatural explanations are unnecessary

3rd. History does not corroborate the Bible. Those religious accounts of Jesus not in the Bible were rejected by the early Church, itself. Claimed corroboration by secular sources such as Tacitus and Josephus were written long after the events related in the four Gospels supposedly occurred and, in fact, refer to what the early church followers believed and did rather than to Jesus himself. Also, evidence is strong that the relevant passages in Josephus are pious frauds, altered or added long after the original text was written. As to any Biblical references to otherwise known historical events, they are no more corroborative of biblical inerrancy than is "Ben Hur."

4th. It has never been established that "prophecy" exists in any form, and Biblical prophecy has not been shown to be more accurate than any other kind. It can be and is manipulated in the same manner as are the quatrains of Nostradamus. Anyone with an agenda can bolster their position through "interpretation" of cherry - picked passages, tortured definitions and vague generalization applied to events after the fact. This is identical to the process by which various groups have repeatedly drawn from the Bible to support political and "moral" arguments. Illustrative are the pro- and anti-slavery factions preceding the American Civil War, where each sought to justify it's opinion of the "peculiar institution" through biblical interpretation.

5th. It is easily demonstrated that the Bible is abundantly inconsistent, with conflicting accounts of Creation, the Ten Commandments, Jesus' resurrection, etc, but its believers are inconsistent as well. They are divided into opposing factions on every conceivable aspect of Bible teaching: the Bible is to be understood as it is written, the Bible speaks metaphorically; all can be saved, some are predestined to Heaven and some to hell; there are but two sacraments, there are seven sacraments; pray to Mary, don't pray to Mary; Jesus was God *and* man, Jesus was God *in* man. And so on.

6th. Even if an individual finds it necessary to believe in "God," he is therefore faced with the perplexing necessity of choosing which faction to join or, indeed, whether to form his own. It should be noted here that this discussion is limited to mainstream Christian beliefs and does not consider Mormons, Gnostics, or the more esoteric Christian sects. And then there are all of the non-Christian beliefs in the world today (Islam is the world's largest religion but it is almost as factional as is Christianity). In fact, there is no way to tell how many thousands or millions or hundreds of millions of gods humanity has believed in, and more are being born every day. The United States alone has given rise to at least three major sects in the last two centuries (LDS, Seventh Day Adventists, Scientology). Nor are the old gods necessarily giving way; Zoroastrianism, the religion of the first Mesopotamian civilizations, still exists.

7th. Most believers will tell you that you must believe as they do in order to receive the benefits of a belief in God. A few will allow that it is (barely/theoretically) possible to believe otherwise and still receive at least some benefit, but usually only if a stern set of (their) rules is strictly adhered to.

What, then, to believe? And why? Whether to believe at all, oddly enough, is easier to answer. Belief in a deity can help make sense of a world or universe that might otherwise be inexplicable. Belief in a compassionate god can give succor in time of trouble. Belief can foster a sense of community. In short, believing feels good. But this still begs the question, why should I believe as you do? Will it make me feel better than believing the way someone else does? How and why will it do that?

Personally I envy believers. Having once been of their number I have personal knowledge of how comforting and comfortable it can be. Having an Our Father Who Art in Heaven, in whose lap you can safely sit until life's demons leave you in peace, is marvelous. Some of us, however, have chosen to depart from the nest and strike out on our own. We are experiencing the world outside the warm comfort in which the rest have chosen to remain. Yes, it's cold, wet and dangerous out here, but it's the way things really are. We hold that it is better to see the world as it is, without it being filtered through an ancient set of morality plays.

What comes after this life? I don't know. As with the question of god, I don't see any reason to think or believe anything comes after. I could be wrong. If I am, would a god who, as I am told, created me and gave me my reason and intellect and who, as I am also told, is infinitely compassionate, really abandon me for all eternity simply because I misunderstood? Intellect is what separates us from the so-called "lower orders." If humanity really is the special product of a creator god, then our intellect is his special gift to us. To not use it to the best of our ability would be to refuse that gift and thereby insult the giver. It therefore seems appropriate to ask whether, if using our intellect to the best of our ability results in an honest error, that merits divine punishment? At the very least it strikes me that an honestly-held disbelief would be more-favorably received by a creator god than would a more-cynical "faith" professed for the sake of playing it safe or hedging a bet (Pascal's Wager).

I do not believe that the religious are necessarily my enemy, or that they are deluded. The world is full of good and decent people; if these good and decent people wish to attribute their goodness and decency to a perceived deity, I will not argue. I do, however, believe that the religious are honestly mistaken. If I should not be condemned for honest error then neither should they, and I therefore extend to them the same courtesy I expect for myself. Further, I defend their right to their belief as I defend my own conclusions, providing that belief does not intrude into such realms as education, health or government. These areas are of public concern; public policy must be guided by facts and evidence which are non-partisan in nature, and not by belief, tenet, faith or bias.

There is a prayer that could have been written by an atheist: "Lord, Thy sea is so great and my boat is so small." So it is that I in my little boat bob up and down on the wide ocean. I have accepted the inevitability that I will eventually founder, but I have also determined that in the meantime my voyage will be smoother if I occupy my hands with rowing rather than with praying.

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1. Nothing can be empirically proven 100% true or false, but statements of the sort "there is no X" can certainly receive confirmation from evidence.

2. All observed phenomena are equally consistent with us living in a simulation, a collective dream we're all having, you being a brain in a vat, god(s) maintaining an orderly universe, etc.

Parsimony might suggest we not multiply entities needlessly, but that only knocks out the god theories. There are probabilistic arguments that suggest we actually are in a simulation. And even the god theories explain something- how everything started. Something had to get the ball rolling; quantum fluctuations or a snap of god's fingers. They both lead down the rabbit hole of "what caused/came before that?" Why is there something rather than nothing?

And to go really out on a limb, what is the only thing about reality we can be sure of: that our mind/consciousness exists. I can be wrong about everything else (math, logic, this computer existing independent from me), but I can't be wrong that I exist (if you grant my the colloquial use of "I"). So why should I believe there's some material stuff that exists independent of me? Why is that a better explanation for reality instead of all this being a dream? I cannot be wrong that my mind exists, so why shouldn't I just go with idealism and conclude the waking world is just another kind of dream? At least idealism has a foundation it can rest on (the indisputable existence of the mind). Materialism has no similar foundation.

(3) no argument from me on that one. But the god of the bible isn't the only possible god(s).

(4) There hasn't been much evidence in laboratory settings, that's for sure. But prophecy and gods don't necessarily go hand-in-hand.

(5) Again, no argument

(6) True for material belief systems as well. When one recognizes that quantum mechanics is a real phenomenon one usually commits to a "camp" that tries to explain it. There's the Many Worlds Interpretation, and a couple other competing explanations. Same with abiogenesis, alien life, cosmological explanations like String Theory and Inflation Theory...

(7) That's only an objection to a god that requires you to have faith in get "the goodies".
 
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Which gods are those besides the Deist god?

Any god ever? I'm trying to remember some religion that makes falsifiable claims, but I'm drawing blanks. Do you know any whose gods are predictable?

I mean even something that you'd think would be a slam dunk, like the Norse religion -- you know, where the rainbow is a bridge to Asgard, Thor rides around in a chariot pulled by two goats, Freya has one pulled by two cats, and earthquakes are caused by Loki writhing in pain -- I can find you quotes that say they didn't LITERALLY mean that. See, it was just a way for those primitive people to express an invisible reality on top of the perceivable one. Or so I'm told.

The 'it's a METAPHOR!' argument, basically.

How WOULD you falsify something like that? Exactly what falsifiable predictions does it make? I suppose there's Ragnarök, but as I was saying in another thread, you might have to wait a couple of billion years for that. Are you going to show it can't be a metaphor, or what's the plan, really?

Edit: hell, even animistic or shamanistic stuff, where the shaman comes from the trance and tells you that he personally spoke to the great rabbit spirit, and he will send lots of rabbits for your hunters... you'd think that's falsifiable, right? Nah, it wouldn't have survived if it were. See, if you don't get rabbits, then it's because another evil shaman is keeping them away from your tribe's hunters. So if it happens, the magic woowoo is real, if it doesn't happen, it's still because the magic woowoo is real. A lot of the endemic warfare between tribes is because of exactly that kind of sorcery dodge. So how would you falsify that?
 
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EXCEPT there is already a name for thinking hard and honest about such questions. It's called philosophy. That's really what you get, once you strip away the superstition, and the blindly trusting others, and really the parts where that inquiry is silenced rather than pursued.

There's no need to blur and equivocate the two. I mean it's like saying that I like ducks, but I don't mean the kind with flat feet that swim, I mean those with four legs, fur, who catch mice and meow and purr. That's my TRUE ducks. Well, no, there's already a perfectly good word for those, no need to redefine ducks :p

But basically, yes, skipping past the needless lexical redefinition, philosophy IS a lot more useful than religion. And, yes, it is related to science.


my point is that disputing the existence of a talking duck in a sailor suit would be too easy
 
Nevertheless, if you feel there's no challenge in disproving a duck in a sailor suit, it's still pointless to redefine a cat as the true duck and pretend that that's what the others were arguing about :p
 
Any god ever? I'm trying to remember some religion that makes falsifiable claims, but I'm drawing blanks. Do you know any whose gods are predictable?

I mean even something that you'd think would be a slam dunk, like the Norse religion -- you know, where the rainbow is a bridge to Asgard, Thor rides around in a chariot pulled by two goats, Freya has one pulled by two cats, and earthquakes are caused by Loki writhing in pain -- I can find you quotes that say they didn't LITERALLY mean that. See, it was just a way for those primitive people to express an invisible reality on top of the perceivable one. Or so I'm told.

The 'it's a METAPHOR!' argument, basically.

How WOULD you falsify something like that? Exactly what falsifiable predictions does it make? I suppose there's Ragnarök, but as I was saying in another thread, you might have to wait a couple of billion years for that. Are you going to show it can't be a metaphor, or what's the plan, really?

Edit: hell, even animistic or shamanistic stuff, where the shaman comes from the trance and tells you that he personally spoke to the great rabbit spirit, and he will send lots of rabbits for your hunters... you'd think that's falsifiable, right? Nah, it wouldn't have survived if it were. See, if you don't get rabbits, then it's because another evil shaman is keeping them away from your tribe's hunters. So if it happens, the magic woowoo is real, if it doesn't happen, it's still because the magic woowoo is real. A lot of the endemic warfare between tribes is because of exactly that kind of sorcery dodge. So how would you falsify that?
"You can make excuses" doesn't mean unfalsifiable. If I say "this experiment will result X," we can try it. That's falsifiable. If it doesn't do X, and I say "oh, that's because the pixies weren't paying attention," that's a new claim, an unfalsifiable one, because there's no way to test for pixie attention unless I specify how.

So in a sense, you're both right. Pretty much every god started out easily falsifiable, but pretty much every god became unfalsifiable as bits were challenged and snipped away over time.
 
My point though is that any religion I can think of avoided making claims like "this experiment will result in X", not that they could make excuses afterwards. There was always the caveat upfront that you can't predict the gods or great spirits, or if it sounded like a prediction (e.g., the great rabbit spirit will send more rabbits), it lacked the constraints to make it measurable at the time.

They didn't say stuff like "there will be at least 12 rabbits in THAT clearing tomorrow at noon". Essentially the claim was more like that the great spirits will send an unspecified number of rabbits, at an unspecified time and rate, in the world. Whether they'll even be in your territory, or if they'll stay there or be steered away by the evil shaman of some other tribe, nobody was stupid enough to narrow it down that much.

Essentially think of fortune tellers in the modern world. At the very least they'll keep it as vague as giving you an event or a time, but not both. But quite often the prediction itself is so vague that it can mean more than one thing. And essentially shamans and ancient oracles and prophets were like that. Anyone who was any good knew how to make a prediction that won't come back to bite him in the ass and cost him the sweet job.
 
Ask any Christian if God heals the sick in response to prayer. That's a falsifiable claim. Even if God is very fickle and only heals people when you aren't looking, you can still look at the statistics to see if Christians are just dying less than other faiths (they aren't).

If you look further back, before people had a good grasp of statistics, you can find increasingly blatant claims. Like trials by ordeal, in which the accused's god (not necessarily the Christian god, it was also popular with various tribes at times) would protect them if they were innocent. Which never happened, but everyone had a cousin who knew a guy who said they saw someone totally pick up the rock from the cauldron of boiling oil, so it worked, right?
 
I posted the same thing about statistics IIRC about a year ago, so, yeah, we can agree that in this age of information, things have become easier to falsify. But back when those claims were made, they were pretty safe claims for the charlatans and schizophrenics making them.
 

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