My revised writeup on Maoist China...

[Malachi151]

Really more of a history leading up to the Communist takeover.

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/maoist_china.htm

 

[Dancing David]

The book by Tuchman Stillwell seems to paint an accurate picture. Mao is greatly misunderstood because of the Cold War. I understand why he did the great leap backwards but it was a Great Mistake. he should have followed the Tao more than he did.

Pre revolutionary China was a mess.

 

[RandFan]

The book by Tuchman Stillwell seems to paint an accurate picture. Mao is greatly misunderstood because of the Cold War. I understand why he did the great leap backwards but it was a Great Mistake. he should have followed the Tao more than he did.

Pre revolutionary China was a mess.

Mao is deserving of much criticism. There are many areas but I think the worst were his decisions to both kill the sparrows and the back yard steel production.

Such ideas were completly without any basis for success. For one man to gamble with the lives of millions based on speculation and a refusal to aquire information that was easily with in his grasp is beyond the scope of understanding. The arrogance to think himself supperior to the scientists and experts who had hundreds of years of agricultural knowledge is extremly sad and pathetic. The results of killing the sparrows were a foregone conclusion to anyone who had a modicum of understanding of ecosystems.

The fact that Mao actually cared for his people simply cannot overcome the fact that he was in effect one of the greatest and deadliest monsters in the history of modern civiliztion. As a father of three I can only imagine a few things more insidious than a man who would cause me to witness my children starve to death one by one in front of my eyes simply because that man chose to rely on his own judgment and didn't bother to check out the facts.

 

[corplinx]

I love how he crushed the kung fu schools with tanks, sent shaolin monks to "reeducation", and then replaced chinese traditional martial arts with government approved dance based version.

Gun control? Ha, Mao had fist control.

 

[Malachi151]

simply because that man chose to rely on his own judgment and didn't bother to check out the facts.

Yeah, like George Bush?

Obviously the leasson to learn when about all dictators is not that "dictators are bad", duh, we all know that, but HOW these people come to power. What are the conditions that make is possible for these people to take power and gain a following and receive enough support to do what they do?

That's the real lesson to learn, and what you see all throught history is that these kinds of people take power when the majority of the population is desperate.

The question there is, why were the desperate in the first place?

 

[RandFan]

Yeah, like George Bush?

Actually more like Bill Clinton.

Obviously the leasson to learn when about all dictators is not that "dictators are bad", duh, we all know that, but HOW these people come to power. What are the conditions that make is possible for these people to take power and gain a following and receive enough support to do what they do?

That's the real lesson to learn, and what you see all throught history is that these kinds of people take power when the majority of the population is desperate.

The question there is, why were the desperate in the first place?

While that is a valid lesson to learn, I don't think it is the most important one.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Any government that places too much power in the hands of a few is subject to abuse. Time after time history has demonstrated this to be true. It is this reason that thousands of years ago the Romans experimented with separation of power. It is the reason today many western civilizations practice some form representative democracy.

And it is a monumental fatal flaw in Communist theory.

In order to reach a state where the people all work together and government is no longer needed first the people who are counter to the goals of communism must be re-educated or eliminated. This can't be done if there are dissidents who speak out for individual rights. To combat these pesky troublemakers requires a strong central government that has the ability to mold society. To be successful, sufficient power to effect change must be placed in the hands of a few.

"Oops there goes gravity" --EMINEM

 

[Malachi151]

Actually more like Bill Clinton.

Not that I'm any fan of Clinton's, but he did take advice from impartial advosors very often, from both Democrats and Republicans, and he listened to the intelligence community.

 

[Dancing David]

RandFand,
I am not a Mao apologist by any means, he like most humans showed a mixed bag of good and evil. I think that China like Russia had and has a great deal of cultural baggage that led to the horrible choices he made.

 

[Malachi151]

While that is a valid lesson to learn, I don't think it is the most important one.

Yes, actually it is.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

A bit of a truism, but yes, its not good for anyone or any group to have absolute power, thats like a 'duh" statement. Its like saying that its bad to be a mass muderer.

And this is what it gets down to. You, and people like you, like to sit back and say "murder is wrong, its bad, murders need to be punished because they are evil."

Ummm... okay, that's all well and good, but the REAL lesson to be learned here is not that murder is bad, we all know that, but why do some people grow up to become murderers in the first place?

This is where more advanced people like to learn some deeper lessons, and get at the root causes of problems to determine WHY they happen in the first place so that those issues can be addressed so they they WONT happen in the future.

Its obvious that people who grow up in an abusive house hold are more likely to be abusive, so what we can learn from that is that simply punishing people who are abusive is never going to solve the problem of abuse, in order to do that you have to change attitudes and prevent abuse from taking place in families while childern are young and keep children out of abusive environments. We have been doing that and child abuse of over the past 50 years has gone down dramtically.

The type of thinking goes with larger social situations. Entire societies who are abused tend be become more and more extreme in their efforts to combat the abuses that they are being subject too, and the harder they have to fight to defend themselves the more extreme he causes become. The obviousness of this is everywhere if you read a little history. As a society becomes more and more threatened by some enemy they unite behind some other entity to comabt that threat, and it is during THAT process that extreme leaders almost always come to power.

What were the extreme pressures that were being put on China that united the country behind Mao? The threat of Western and Japanese imperialism accompanied by the internal threat from the corrupt regime of Chaing Kai Shek and the dominearing Chinese warlords.

 

[RandFan]

Yes, actually it is.

That is your opinion. I can respect it. I hope you can respect mine.

A bit of a truism, but yes, its not good for anyone or any group to have absolute power, thats like a 'duh" statement. Its like saying that its bad to be a mass muderer.

Hardly, if people from around the world understood this concept and worked to install Democracies we could stop these problems.

And this is what it gets down to. You, and people like you, like to sit back and say "murder is wrong, its bad, murders need to be punished because they are evil."

You are putting words in my mouth. No, people like me say, the problems in this world are caused by too much power in the hands of a few and we should stop this practice. We need to get rid of dictators and install representative democracies. We need to find a way to educate those currently in nations that are controlled by dictators and convince them that their lives could be much better if they stopped bitching about America and marched against those who truly enslave them and bring them real pain and misery and it isn't the Americans. It is there own leaders.

You are trying to make something complicated that simply doesn't need to be complicated. Freedom works. Yes that is a DUH statement. The problem is that there are too many countries that don't have freedom.

It might be a "duh" statement to you and I but it is not a duh statement to all of the people who advocate communism or those who want to "kill" the infidels and make us all Muslim.

Ummm... okay, that's all well and good, but the REAL lesson to be learned here is not that murder is bad, we all know that, but why do some people grow up to become murderers in the first place?

I have no problem with that but we understand all to well why people of this world suffer.

It is because of ignorance caused by religion and lack of freedom. What people need is education and freedom from opression. All your theory and insults won't change that simple fact.

This is where more advanced people like to learn some deeper lessons, and get at the root causes of problems to determine WHY they happen in the first place so that those issues can be addressed so they they WONT happen in the future.

And practical people realize that the root causes of the problems are well understood and that we need to get rid of reliance on religion and governments that don't foster freedom.

Entire societies who are abused tend be become more and more extreme in their efforts to combat the abuses that they are being subject too, and the harder they have to fight to defend themselves the more extreme he causes become. The obviousness of this is everywhere if you read a little history. As a society becomes more and more threatened by some enemy they unite behind some other entity to comabt that threat, and it is during THAT process that extreme leaders almost always come to power.

No argument.

What were the extreme pressures that were being put on China that united the country behind Mao? The threat of Western and Japanese imperialism accompanied by the internal threat from the corrupt regime of Chaing Kai Shek and the dominearing Chinese warlords.

The problems you cite were real. I don't dispute them. The problem that you fail to grasp is that the people did not understand the inherent problems of Comunism. One of the most important things that we can teach the world is that the solution to its many problems lies in empowering individuals and not leaders.

Had the Chinese or the Russians installed a representative democracy for their government intead of attempting to create utopia via communsim then there would not have been tens of millions imprisoned, tortured, mutilated, starved and murdered.

Likewise, had Germans sought to decentralize power rather than allow Hitler to consolidate it then there would have been no Holocaust.

You can think my ideas simplistic all you want but there is no doubt that the most potent tools for solving the problems of the world are freedom and education.

 

[RandFan]

RandFand,
I am not a Mao apologist by any means, he like most humans showed a mixed bag of good and evil. I think that China like Russia had and has a great deal of cultural baggage that led to the horrible choices he made.

My only point is that when humans are faced with a choice of government they should choose representative democracy and not be lured by the temptation of Communism or any government where power is concentrated in the hands of a few. Hitler rose to power because people wanted to believe that he cared about them and were willing to put their trust in him.

Manifesto says that is a "duh" statement yet after thosands of years of experimenting people are still making the same stupid mistakes.

America figured it out 150 years before the Chinese and Russians decided to experiment with communism.

My question is how many more countries will dabble in facism or communism before it is finally figured out that they simply don't work.

 

[RandFan]

Not that I'm any fan of Clinton's, but he did take advice from impartial advosors very often, from both Democrats and Republicans, and he listened to the intelligence community.

So you have proof that Clinton took advice from impartial advisors and Bush does not? And it seems that it is the advice from the intelligence community is what got Bush in trouble. Oh, and Bill DIDN'T always take advice from the intelligence community. He signed agreements with China that were against the whishes of the intelligence community that came back to haunt him.

Your argument is specious.

 

[Dancing David]

My only point is that when humans are faced with a choice of government they should choose representative democracy and not be lured by the temptation of Communism or any government where power is concentrated in the hands of a few. Hitler rose to power because people wanted to believe that he cared about them and were willing to put their trust in him.

Given the fact that in China the power came from the barrel of a gun it is not suprising that one autocracy replaced another. Mao was definitly in his cultures mindset as he weilded power.

-snip-
America figured it out 150 years before the Chinese and Russians decided to experiment with communism.

The founders of our nation very deliberatly set up the constitution, it was meant to be what it became. But they also came from a constitutional monachy that was developing balance of power. Not an autocracy.


My question is how many more countries will dabble in facism or communism before it is finally figured out that they simply don't work.
There sure are plenty countries in Africa, Asia ans Latin America that continue to practice military dictatorship. What happened here in the US is rather unique.

 

[RandFan]

Given the fact that in China the power came from the barrel of a gun it is not suprising that one autocracy replaced another. Mao was definitly in his cultures mindset as he weilded power.

The founders of our nation very deliberatly set up the constitution, it was meant to be what it became. But they also came from a constitutional monachy that was developing balance of power. Not an autocracy.

There sure are plenty countries in Africa, Asia ans Latin America that continue to practice military dictatorship. What happened here in the US is rather unique.

Agreed.

 

[Malachi151]

Also don't forget that China comes from a strong Confucion tradition and that Confucionism is essentially the same as Marxism, and something that has been a strong part of Chinese culture for over 2,500 years.

The Chinese were essentially thr richest region of the world about 600 years ago when they came in contact with the West, however, unfortunately for they were not as aggressive, militant, or exploitive as the Western people who crushed their civilization adn rodbed their culture or its treasures to fuel their empires, so the past 500 years have been tought for them, going from a stable wealthy civilization to an exploited and poverty stricken one, and they are now slowly back on the rise, but I doubt they will ever see the type of civilization they had before Marco Polo visited them.

 

[Aoidoi]

The Chinese were essentially thr richest region of the world about 600 years ago when they came in contact with the West, however, unfortunately for they were not as aggressive, militant, or exploitive...

Talk to Korea. China was all those things, the only difference was that they viewed China as the only important part of the world and thus weren't as expansionistic as the West... they simply felt the rest of the world was unimportant so didn't move to exploit it. There's a lovely example of why absolute autocratic governments can be a problem... the Chinese had the finest sailing vessels in the world until an internal power struggle caused the government to shut down all of the shipmaking industry. This had absolutely nothing to due to the Evil Imperialist West, btw. Purely internal.

as the Western people who crushed their civilization adn rodbed their culture or its treasures to fuel their empires, so the past 500 years have been tought for them, going from a stable wealthy civilization to an exploited and poverty stricken one, and they are now slowly back on the rise, but I doubt they will ever see the type of civilization they had before Marco Polo visited them.

Last I heard Marco Polo never made it to China. Anybody with more knowledge want to comment on that? In any case, I'd suggest that the Japanese were far more devastating to China during WWII than the West has managed to be through imperialism.

I'd also like to see how China is crawling it's way out of a 500 year hole. What measure are you using? What are your criteria? If you mean relative to the West then I can sort of see your point, obviously the west is much better off... but that is due to the west being vastly better off now than in the past whereas China has not improved as quickly. Modern China relative to China 500 years ago I fail to see how they are worse off. Their government is still repressive and brutal, but more so than back then? I doubt it. Life expectancy is up, technology is percolating through the country, sanitation and medicine are widespread... seems a lot better off to me.

I find your eurocentric view of the world to be... limited.