My HUGE problem with Wikileaks

[Pardalis]

If Manning is the guy, I hope he rots in jail for a long, long time.

Edited by LashL: 

Removed quoted moderated content.

Are you saying if Manning broke the law he shouldn't be punished? Because that's all Wildcat implied, that he should do jailtime if he's found guilty. I don't see where you get all your disgust from.

 

[Dr. Fascism]

Are you saying if Manning broke the law he shouldn't be punished? Because that's all Wildcat implied, that he should do jailtime if he's found guilty. I don't see where you get all your disgust from.

Certain (mentally sick) people are expressing joy at the thought of this man wasting his life away in a prison. That's a far cry from merely "he should do jailtime if guilty."

Additionally, if your criterion for justice is merely, "break the law, go to prison," then you should probably be very careful about what laws you break. He may have broke the law, but that's no more to the point than those that helped hide Anne Frank broke the law. Manning is a whistleblower and a hero that helped reveal the sham of the propaganda about the war. Americans are being sold lies not only the reasons behind our wars but how well the wars are going.

The reason some people are irrationally and childishly (to put it mildly) angry at Manning isn't that he leaked government documents so much as it is that he defied the government itself. Manning's crime was that he wasn't obedient enough. If all you care about is what the law says and not what it actually is, then you're really identifying with a sort of quasi-fascistic mindset (and I mean every word of that).

 

[Pardalis]

By all means, Dr. Fascism, break the law if it's unimportant to you.

Just be ready to face the consequences.

 

[Dr. Fascism]

By all means, Dr. Fascism, break the law if it's unimportant to you.

Just be ready to face the consequences.

By all means, hide Jews in your attic if the law is that unimportant to you.

Just be ready to face the consequences.

By all means, help blacks escape from slavery if the law is that unimportant to you.

Just be ready to face the consequences.

By all means, have gay sex in Texas if the law is that unimportant to you.

Just be ready to face the consequences.

Is your love of the government that great, that you're willing to defend jailing those that broke the law in the name of justice and/or freedom or just did nothing wrong? Are you also going to relish the thought of them rotting in jail for a long time?

 

[Pardalis]

By all means, hide Jews in your attic if the law is that unimportant to you.

Just be ready to face the consequences.

By all means, help blacks escape from slavery if the law is that unimportant to you.

Just be ready to face the consequences.

By all means, have gay sex in Texas if the law is that unimportant to you.

Just be ready to face the consequences.

Of course none of that compares to what Manning allegedly did but if imagining it does rocks your boat...

Is your love of the government that great, that you're willing to defend jailing those that broke the law in the name of justice and/or freedom or just did nothing wrong?

What Manning allegedly did was cowardly, and wasn't in the name of justice or freedom, no matter how much you try to spin it.

 

[Dr. Fascism]

Of course none of that compares to what Manning allegedly did but if imagining it does rocks your boat...

That's not even the issue here, is it? The contention here is is that if you break the law, you should go to jail (according to you). It doesn't matter how comparable they are in degree; I was attacking your premise. If you break a bad law, you should not go to jail, certainly not to "rot for a long, long time." Suddenly we're demonizing whistleblowers because they're doing it under the wrong administration? Anything that makes Obama look bad...

What Manning allegedly did was cowardly, and wasn't in the name of justice or freedom, no matter how much you try to spin it.

Yeah, what a coward. That word actually has a meaning, you know, throwing it around for no reason kind of renders the word meaningless.

What Manning did was commendable. If a supposedly informed citizenry is necessary for a democracy, then he brought light important information on the war for citizens to consider when pondering our Middle East escapades. Yes, he defied the government. Sometimes, that's actually a GOOD thing, believe it or not. Or is the skeptical thing to just trust the government's public version of events?

 

[Pardalis]

That's not even the issue here, is it? The contention here is is that if you break the law, you should go to jail (according to you).

And according to every judicial system in every country in the world.

Suddenly we're demonizing whistleblowers

He's not a whislteblower, he's a traitor.

What Manning did was commendable.

To each his own moral standards. I think what is commendable is the work our Coalition forces are doing in Afghanistan.

 

[Dr. Fascism]

And according to every judicial system in the every country in the world.

Yeah, and every Neo Nazi in the world thinks that whites and blacks should be separate. I don't see the importance of this at all. It's pretty much true by definition. Your point? Many people that protested the Iranian's governments activities were breaking the law and were punished for that, I suppose that was justice?

He's not a whislteblower, he's a traitor.

Whew! For a second there, I
thought you were gonna accuse him of being a TERRORIST! Manning's a traitor because he exposed the government's war lies. Oh, the horror.

To each his own moral standards.

I'm not sure I'd call relishing Manning in jail anything akin to "morality."

 

[Pardalis]

Yeah, and every Neo Nazi in the world thinks that whites and blacks should be separate. I don't see the importance of this at all. It's pretty much true by definition. Your point?

I agree that most laws in the US and Canada are good, and just. Some of them may be bizarre and out of date, but I agree with most of them.

We do not live in a Nazi system, so you can talk about them all you want, they still have nothing to do with the discussion.

Many people that protested the Iranian's governments activities were breaking the law and were punished for that, I suppose that was justice?

That's Iran. They do live in a totalitarian regime.

But in Canada, at the G-20, that's not why they were incarcerated and prosecuted. They were punished for breaking property, instigating violence, disoderly conduct, conspiracy to assault, obstruct police, mischief, and resisting arrest.

The peaceful protesters were not arrested, and they were able to protest.

You can't compare states like Iran to Canada and the US. Stick to the topic.

Whew! For a second there, I
thought you were gonna accuse him of being a TERRORIST! Manning's a traitor because he exposed the government's war lies. Oh, the horror.

No, he exposed documents that were classified, and endangered soldiers and military personel.

 

[Pardalis]

Let me clear up a misunderstanding. When I said this:

By all means, Dr. Fascism, break the law if it's unimportant to you.

Just be ready to face the consequences.

I was talking about the law in the US, not the law in Nazi Germany, not the law in today's Iran.

I was talking about the laws of the US, capisce? Which are for the most part just (and most modern Western democracies).

Shall we stick to the topic now?

 

[Dr. Fascism]

I agree that most laws in the US and Canada are good, and just. Some of them may be bizarre and out of date, but I agree with most of them.

We do not live in a Nazi system, so you can talk about them all you want, they still have nothing to do with the discussion.

Still has nothing to do with the fact that bad laws should be broken, and it's not justice punishing people for breaking them.

I didn't ask you whether you agreed with most of them or not, that's irrelevant information and I don't really care to get to know you as a person.

That's Iran. They do live in a totalitarian regime.

Because they're worse than the United States, yes. That's not a defense for jailing Manning.

But in Canada, at the G-20, that's not why they were incarcerated and prosecuted. They were punished for breaking property, instigating violence, disoderly conduct, conspiracy to assault, obstruct police, mischief, and resisting arrest.

...OK? Your thoughts are getting a bit schizophrenic here.

No, he exposed documents that were classified, and endangered soldiers and military personel.

Yes, it's a given that he exposed classified information. So?

Yes, he -might- have put soldiers and military personnel in danger, although from the looks of things most of the leaked stuff isn't really that bad. I do think it's a fair question to ask how many soldiers and military personnel have put civilians in danger, and how many they've killed. But, that's not an important question to ask--they're just brown people, just "Others" in some backwater third-world country, they're not important like our good ol' American boys overseas. No need to consider or care about them, and what our foreign policy does to them.

 

[Dr. Fascism]

I was talking about the law in the US, not the law in Nazi Germany, not the law in today's Iran.

I was talking about the laws of the US, capisce? Which are for the most part just (and most modern Western democracies).

I don't really care if you personally feel most of the laws are just; we are talking about Manning fighting an injustice so whether most laws are in your view just are completely irrelevant. You could have a country with only just laws except "All Asians must be reported to the authorities on sight for incarceration" and it wouldn't be a just state just because "most" of the laws are acceptable.

 

[Pardalis]

Still has nothing to do with the fact that bad laws should be broken, and it's not justice punishing people for breaking them.

What bad laws should be broken in the US?

Because they're worse than the United States, yes.

So why mention them at all?

OK? Your thoughts are getting a bit schizophrenic here.

I was showing you our laws are more just than totalitarian regimes.

If you don't like it, then don't mention Iran.

Yes, it's a given that he exposed classified information. So?

then he should have known better.

Yes, he -might- have put soldiers and military personnel in danger, although from the looks of things most of the leaked stuff isn't really that bad.

You don't know yet. Alot of informers and undercover agents might be exposed, and it could hinder futher intelligence gathering.

I do think it's a fair question to ask how many soldiers and military personnel have put civilians in danger, and how many they've killed.

For your own political end of course. You want the war to end so you want to smear your troops.

But, that's not an important question to ask--they're just brown people, just "Others" in some backwater third-world country, they're not important like our good ol' American boys overseas.

Nice strawman.

No need to consider or care about them, and what our foreign policy does to them.

We are considering them, we are taking caring of them, our soldiers are putting their lives at risk for them, every *********** day since 2001. they are protecting them against the attacks of the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

They are trying to help them build a functionning democracy, they are helping them secure their borders and checkpoints, they train their cops and army, they are building roads and schools for them, escorting convoys of food, medicine and supplies.

Are you saying the Coalition has not been doing that for the last 9 years? If so, what planet are you living on?

 

[Pardalis]

we are talking about Manning fighting an injustice so whether most laws are in your view just are completely irrelevant.

And what injustice is that?

 

[Dr. Fascism]

We are considering them, we are taking caring of them, our soldiers are putting their lives at risk for them, every *********** day since 2001. they are protecting them against the attacks of the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

They are trying to help them build a functionning democracy, they are helping them secure their borders and checkpoints, they train their cops and army, they are building roads and schools for them, escorting convoys of food, medicine and supplies.

Cool.

I bet you bought into the whole "WMDs" thing, too, right?

 

[Pardalis]

Cool.

What? You mean you just learned about it now?

I bet you bought into the whole "WMDs" thing, too, right?

And the relevance to this topic is...?

 

[Dr. Fascism]

And the relevance to this topic is...?

THINK, Pardalis.

 

[Pardalis]

THINK, Pardalis.

You tell me. The Wikileaks documents are about Afghanistan for one thing.

 

[Pardalis]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10934113

Human rights groups are putting pressure on the website Wikileaks to remove the names of Afghan civilians from leaked US military reports.
The groups, which include Amnesty International, say Afghans identified as suppliers of information to the US military could face reprisals.

Seems Assange and Manning don't care about Afghans either, they are not only putting Coalition troops and personel at risk, but Afghans as well.

 

[Dr. Fascism]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10934113


Seems Assange and Manning don't care about Afghans either, they are not only putting Coalition troops and personel at risk, but Afghans as well.

Wikileaks made an effort to ensure names were not made available; I don't know if they got all the names, but even so, it's curious that you'd (pretend) to be upset about this when the US military has killed far more civilians than this ever will or could.