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My First Ever Banning

Well Architect thats what you get for questioning their "movement"!

I think this post is spot on. I long ago realized that the "truth movement" is in many ways a religion. Just look at the signs of it - the blind faith of many in the movement, ignoring or explaining away any facts that go against their faith, etc. The Government/NWO/The Empire/etc. is the equivalent of Satan. Architect was in their "church" questioning their beliefs. It quickly became apparent to them that he wasn't there seeking guidance to turn from his sinful ways. No, Architect was disingenuous with his questions. To them, it was clear he had a hidden agenda. It quickly became obvious that he was there to turn people away from their church. Therefore, Satan was cast out.
 
I think this post is spot on. I long ago realized that the "truth movement" is in many ways a religion. Just look at the signs of it - the blind faith of many in the movement, ignoring or explaining away any facts that go against their faith, etc. The Government/NWO/The Empire/etc. is the equivalent of Satan. Architect was in their "church" questioning their beliefs. It quickly became apparent to them that he wasn't there seeking guidance to turn from his sinful ways. No, Architect was disingenuous with his questions. To them, it was clear he had a hidden agenda. It quickly became obvious that he was there to turn people away from their church. Therefore, Satan was cast out.

Yup.

Try and go to a Scientology meeting and ask questions...
 
posting with having only read a few of the recent posts

Originally Posted by Miragememories

Prior to the final NIST report, MIT professor Thomas Eager wrote in a major scientific journal that the effects of the Boeing 767 crashes would have been insignificant, because "the number of columns lost on the initial impact was not large and loads were shifted to remaining columns in this highly redundant structure."

He stated it would be "insignificant"????? Perhaps you'd like to quote his reference in this regard. Say, the sentence containing the word "insignificant" as well as the sentences bracketing that one.

As for the damage to the core of WTC 1 & 2, you of course are well aware that the outer wall of WTC1 that was hit was twice as far from the core as was the outer wall of WTC 2 that was hit? The buildings had a square outer perimeter but the core was rectangular.

Then there is the fact that the plane that hit WTC 2 was going faster and turning intowards the center of the building when it hit, but we can just set that aside since you will not believe those facts from NIST anyway. You really have no choice but to accept that that first fact though, the construction detail of the buildings.
 
Dylan just posted a new thread:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9843

In which he links to a video of the South Tower collapsing. I'm not sure exactly what his point is of posting it.

However, he just posted this:
Uhh, yeah! They've been banned. Makes me want to sign up over there (again) just to post that.


Maybe he thinks that we should make a big stink here... you know, since we are banned there, then we should put the discussion here.
 
Most of the Truthers have been banned from here as well. P'Doh more than his share of times, in fact.

Of course, over here it's because they simply get banned on purpose.
 
Most of the Truthers have been banned from here as well. P'Doh more than his share of times, in fact.

Not really. Truthers usually just run away. conspiracybeliever (RoxDog) was never banned. He just ran away. Christophera and Christopher7 were not banned AFAIK. Miragememories, etc.

Most of the 'banned CTs' were just Pdoh sock puppets.

Of course, over here it's because they simply get banned on purpose.

There were a couple of suicide my mods, yes.
 
Not really. Truthers usually just run away. conspiracybeliever (RoxDog) was never banned. He just ran away. Christophera and Christopher7 were not banned AFAIK. Miragememories, etc.

Well, many of the non-banned ones were suspended once or twice, at least, and some didn't come back.
 
Christophera was banned.

Put it this way, in the (nearly) year that I have posted here, I have seen tonnes and tonnes of CTers banned (and they couldn't all be socks). From memory, Perry Logan is the only 9/11 debunker I have ever seen banned.

-Gumboot
 
I thought Perry Logan was banned because he insisted on including a link in his sig to that God awful website of his.

I´m Logar from the planet Logar!

It doesn´t even make sense.
 
Originally Posted by Miragememories
Surprisingly, NIST decided WTC1 received less core damage than WTC2 which was hit off center in the corner.
I find your use of the word "decided" somewhat dishonest.

I find your conclusion somewhat totally wrong!

Originally Posted by Miragememories

Certainly this aided their fire hypothesis as the amount of initial core damage was critical to their achieving a successful simulated collapse initiation!
Circular reasoning. You're assuming they lied, and then fitting a theory to explain it.

They had a given belief and it influenced them. Everything about the 'tone' of the NIST report indicated no doubts or concerns about the believed cause. Can you cite any statements that suggest "not a foregone conclusion"?

Less CORE structural damage. Or did you forget what part of the building held most of the mass up ? Also, you might have missed the fact that the airplane hit much lower. Or will you ignore that and not respond, like every truther before you, whenever I mention that ?
??? Your point? Why would I ignore that? Of course I know it hit lower..duh! It hit 15 floors lower, where the core was stronger and the 767 hit WTC2 off center thus avoiding most of the core and doing even less critical damage.

MM
 
??? Your point? Why would I ignore that? Of course I know it hit lower..duh! It hit 15 floors lower, where the core was stronger and the 767 hit WTC2 off center thus avoiding most of the core and doing even less critical damage.

MM

Have you considered that a 767 travelling at 472mph (211m/s) has only 68% of the energy of a 767 at 570mph (254m/s).
 
MM

Basic structures, lesson 14: the corners are usually the strongest part of a structure because of (amongst other things) the bracing action, and damage at these locations can have a disproportionately greater effect (subject to various caveats).

Incidentally it is overly simplistic to suggest that the core carried most of the weight of the towers. The outer structural envelope was, of course, self-bearing. The core and the envelope shared the floor loadings more or less equally (the lack of a cantilever mechanism in the design is a giveaway). Therefore the core supported it's own weight, any centrally located services, and of course the antennae. It also was designed to help the composite structure resist the overturning moment (technical term, sorry).
 
I find your conclusion somewhat totally wrong!

What conclusion ? That your use of the word "decided" seems dishonest to me ? You've got a lot of nerve telling me what goes on in my head.

They had a given belief and it influenced them.

Speculation. You have no idea what they believed.

Everything about the 'tone' of the NIST report indicated no doubts or concerns about the believed cause.

Again, you're projecting your own thoughts upon other people. Stick to the evidence; and please don't tell me you're a psychologist.

Can you cite any statements that suggest "not a foregone conclusion"?

Nope. Why ? Because it's not my job to disprove a negative. Please try again.

It hit 15 floors lower, where the core was stronger and the 767 hit WTC2 off center thus avoiding most of the core and doing even less critical damage.

Wow. You answered this without actually reading this part of my post:

Belz... said:
Or did you forget what part of the building held most of the mass up ?

That would be the perimeter columns. Or did the plane avoid those, too ?
 
I find your conclusion somewhat totally wrong!




They had a given belief and it influenced them. Everything about the 'tone' of the NIST report indicated no doubts or concerns about the believed cause. Can you cite any statements that suggest "not a foregone conclusion"?

??? Your point? Why would I ignore that? Of course I know it hit lower..duh! It hit 15 floors lower, where the core was stronger and the 767 hit WTC2 off center thus avoiding most of the core and doing even less critical damage.

MM

MM,

Your belief system is based upon a certain chain of logic. What you're trying to do is to get us to focus on a single link in the chain that's made of, say, twine, to distract us from all the other links that are made of soggy spagetti strands, if not missing entirely.

Sorry, I'm not biting.
 
I'm really finding your behavior hard to understand, Miragememories.

For what it's worth, I answered your "fuel momentum vs. core column" question (a simple case of you conflating two arguments) in this post, as part of a three week project where I argued you to a standstill on NIST.

Well when I get time I'll take a look at how you explain your belief that the unspent fuel had sufficient kinetic energy to wreak havoc on core columns.

Currently I'm interested in the more important issue of how NIST tweaks model parameters to achieve predetermined results ie. collapse initiation.

In their WTC2 simulation, as I've previously stated, NIST simulated the South Tower plane impact and achieved a collapse initiation. In spite of the Boeing 767-200 only hitting the corner, the core columns being heavier and stronger at the lower 80th floor, and the core only being partially impacted unlike the dead center impact of WTC1. NIST decided WTC2 had 10 columns severed and WTC1 had only 6 columns severed, even though the WTC1 columns at the 95th floor were lighter and weaker.

The supposed justification for this disparity is because in the computer modeled severe case simulation, NIST gave the 767-200 a speed of 570 mph which gave it greater momentum and kinetic energy. They also said they tweaked their models but stayed within reality.

If NIST is being so honest and scientifically realistic in the numbers they use, how can you condone their extreme, and I do mean extreme use of aircraft speed to create the necessary damage to make their collapse initiation hypothesis work?

A few facts which I'm sure you are well aware of;

The Boeing 767-200 is rated for a cruising speed of 530 mph and maximum speed of 568 mph (at 35,000 ft.).

Eduardo Kausel, Professor of Civil & Environmental Engineering Massachusetts Institute of Technology, states; "The speed of the plane that crashed onto the South Tower can be determined with greater confidence than that of the North Tower. This is because there are several videos taken from different angles available which show the last few seconds prior to the collision.
...we conclude that a best estimate for the speed of approach is 225 m/s (i.e. 810 km/hr, or 503 mph).

This speed is in excellent agreement with information from air traffic controllers, who reported
that “Flight 175 had screamed south over the Hudson Valley at about 500 miles per hour, more
than double the legal speed”.
web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/PDFfiles/Chapter%20III%20Aircraft%20speed.pdf

503 mph is a significantly lower speed than 570 mph.

In their less severe case NIST used 521 mph and in their baseline they used 546 mph. NIST was still using numbers that exceeded the careful analysis of MIT's Professor Kausel. Unfortunately for NIST, those numbers failed to create a collapse initiation so they tweaked the speed upwards until they found a number that would achieve their desired expectations. The magic number turned out to be 570 mph to achieve collapse initiation success.

NIST says this was within reality, even though their computer model now is being made to simulate a 767 at 1,000 ft in heavy air, tweaked to fly 12 mph faster than the 767-200's maximum speed at 35,000 feet where air is extremely thin and offers little air speed resistance.

Care to comment?

MM
 
The supposed justification for this disparity is because in the computer modeled severe case simulation, NIST gave the 767-200 a speed of 570 mph which gave it greater momentum and kinetic energy. They also said they tweaked their models but stayed within reality.

If NIST is being so honest and scientifically realistic in the numbers they use, how can you condone their extreme, and I do mean extreme use of aircraft speed to create the necessary damage to make their collapse initiation hypothesis work?

Are you aware that estimates for the speed of Flight 175 go as high as 590mph?
 

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