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My argument against materialism

I'm Not the First One Who Stood Up to the Wolves

Probably Not said:
A completely hypothetical situation that obviously has nothing to do with anyone here. Lets say, years ago, you learned something about nature, or physics, or history. It makes sense to you, and you live your life with this knowledge, and its comfortable and it works for you. Maybe it even inspires you to write some poetry.

Lets say that at some point, in a completely unrelated conversation, you come to realize that nobody else in the world shares your understanding. In fact, they think you're wrong. They give you URLs to read. Maybe they recommend a book or two. Some of the people who disagree with you are professionals in the field relevant to your belief. They don't write any poetry at all, but they do seem to be able to back up their statements with mathematics.

I'm not saying it would be a good idea to instantly abandon your belief based on just this.. but wouldn't this at least give a completely hypothetical person pause? Maybe just to take a break for a day or two to do some independent reading up on things? Or to talk to someone at your local college? Ken, what do you think a reasonable person who found him or herself in this situation should do?
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"Probably Not" One has to stand by their convictions. Louis Pasteur did and won in the end against amazing resistance. This conversation isn't anywhere near his debate but I'll stick to my guns since I feel/know this unusual EM repulsion isn't an quantum feature of EM. I will make my case in due time! Their nasty tactics will NOT deter me! I will make my case.
 
kenkoskinen said:
"Probably Not" One has to stand by their convictions. Louis Pasteur did and won in the end against amazing resistance. This conversation isn't anywhere near his debate but I'll stick to my guns since I feel/know this unusual EM repulsion isn't an quantum feature of EM. I will make my case in due time! Their nasty tactics will NOT deter me! I will make my case.
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I think most of us have been suggesting you make your case from the beginning.
 
dafydd said:
We don't imagine it. We have proof and equations. What do you have? Show us some of your maths please.
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You are confusing vector mechanics with quantum mechanics. Even in vector mechanics (your so-called homework) any surface force only cancels an incoming one. It never repels it, such as this supposed EM repulsion that makes my ass levitate off my chair. WOO!
 
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kenkoskinen said:
You are confusing vector mechanics with quantum mechanics. Even in vector mechanics (your so-called homework) any surface force only cancels an incoming one. It never repels it, such as this supposed EM repulsion that makes my ass levitate off my chair. WOO!
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Don't those mean the same things, here? Gravity is a downward force, electromagnetism repels you from the ground, thereby canceling the continuing force of gravity that would otherwise pull you into the core of the earth.


You obviously believe it works differently. Could you get to your explanation?
 
kenkoskinen said:
If EM were switched off it wouldn't radiate away as anything, never mind gravitational waves. This is because it is physically impossible and as such is merely a thought experiment.
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It's true that switching off EM is physically impossible. Nevertheless, it's possible to consider a thought experiment in a universe with no EM forces, and in which a copy of the earth is sitting somewhere in space. That version of the earth would rapidly collapse under its own gravity. In the process it would radiate away some of its energy as gravity waves (although not much, since it's nearly spherical). All the rest of its energy would go into the black hole that would form.

A black hole can only form due to an ample form of mass/energy/density in a locality.
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That's correct. But it's actually stronger than that - a black hole will always form if the total mass in a region of a given size exceeds a bound (that depends on the size of the region). As the size of the region goes to zero, the bound on the mass does too.

Roughly if the region is of linear size L, you need a mass m>Lc^2/G within it to guarantee black hole formation.

This value can't be zero ... now you're talking magic!
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I didn't say it could.
 
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kenkoskinen said:
"Probably Not" One has to stand by their convictions.
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Even if those convictions are wrong ? Shouldn't you check ?

Louis Pasteur did and won in the end against amazing resistance.
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You're comparing yourself to Pasteur, now ?

This conversation isn't anywhere near his debate but I'll stick to my guns since I feel/know this unusual EM repulsion isn't an quantum feature of EM.
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You "feel" this ? You mean, the same way a religious person "feels" his pet deity exists ?

I will make my case in due time!
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Procrastination isn't very convincing.
 
kenkoskinen said:
It's coming ... but why aren't your asking the opposition to do the same. What's ... this a double standard?
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Well, because they already have. I've visited a number of links explaining electromagnetism and the electromagnetic normal force. This thread has actually been pretty educational.

I have no idea how your alternative works. I don't even know what it's called.
 
kenkoskinen said:
"Probably Not" One has to stand by their convictions.
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I disagree. One's convictions should be based on what is demonstrably true. If they aren't, they should be abandoned and replaced with ones that are. Which actually might touch a bit on the original topic of this thread. :D

kenkoskinen said:
Louis Pasteur did and won in the end against amazing resistance.
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There's a Sagan quote that gets used a lot, but it's a great quote. "But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."

kenkoskinen said:
This conversation isn't anywhere near his debate but I'll stick to my guns since I feel/know this unusual EM repulsion isn't an quantum feature of EM.
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How did you come to feel/know this?

kenkoskinen said:
I will make my case in due time
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I'm looking forward to reading that.

kenkoskinen said:
Their nasty tactics will NOT deter me! I will make my case.
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I wouldn't call it nasty. It's the nature of the forum, but you need to realize that there's nobody here who doesn't really just want to help. When someone is wrong, sometimes you can convince them, and sometimes you can tease them a little, and that can get them to reconsider their beliefs. There's no shame in being wrong if you can let yourself learn better!
 
I think you could make a really good case that dafydd was posting the poetry for purposes of parody or criticism, both of which probably fall under fair use. But I doubt Ken was genuinely concerned that his material was being stolen. He was upset that it was being made fun of and lashing out a bit. The internet is srs business. :boxedin:
 
kenkoskinen said:
You are confusing vector mechanics with quantum mechanics. Even in vector mechanics (your so-called homework) any surface force only cancels an incoming one. It never repels it, such as this supposed EM repulsion that makes my ass levitate off my chair. WOO!
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That is a straw man, it is the repulsion between the outer shell electrons that keep you from interpenetrating your chair, ionic or co-valent bonding helps hold you and the chair together. But I do not recall anyone saying that EM caused leveitation of your ass off your chair.

In my case it is the EM forces between my shorts that keep me from interpentrating my shorts, my shorts from interpenetrating my pants, and my pants from interpenetrating the chair.

The outer shell electron in my pants have the same chage as the outer shell electrons in the chair and therefore they repel.
 
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Dancing David said:
That is a straw man, it is the repulsion between the outer shell electrons that keep you from interpenetrating your chair, ionic or co-valent bonding helps hold you and the chair together. But I do not recall anyone saying that EM caused leveitation of your ass off your chair.

In my case it is the EM forces between my shorts that keep me from interpentrating my shorts, my shorts from interpenetrating my pants, and my pants from interpenetrating the chair.

The outer shell electron in my pants have the same chage as the outer shell electrons in teh chair and therefore they repel.
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But doesn't that repulsion mean that the atoms in your pants never actually touch the atoms in your chair, thus meaning you're "levitating" 10^(-some big number) meters off the chair?
 
This thread is closed for cleaning. Please come back later when it will be safe for you to enter again.

Ok, it's clean now. Someone made a big mess over there in the corner and left it to molder. That's what was causing that musty smell. Please make no more messes and I won't have to do this again, and I won't have to get very cross with you all. Play nice, keep it civil and on topic. The topic is materialism - not the other posters or their poetry. Am I clear? Good.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
 
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kmortis said:
This thread is closed for cleaning. Please come back later when it will be safe for you to enter again.

Ok, it's clean now. Someone made a big mess over there in the corner and left it to molder. That's what was causing that musty smell. Please make no more messes and I won't have to do this again, and I won't have to get very cross with you all. Play nice, keep it civil and on topic. The topic is materialism - not the other posters or their poetry. Am I clear? Good.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
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Message received and understood. Does the EM debate count as materialism?
 
Belz... said:
I think this is Ken's major misunderstanding here: he seems to think that gravity will only pull you towards the center of mass up to a certain point. This obviously makes no sense: if there is no counter-force involved, any force will simply continue to accelerate whatever it's acting upon. I believe that this is why he didn't answer my hypothetical scenario (similar to yours, in fact): he can see how ridiculous his own ideas are when applied this way.
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That seems to be the nub of the matter.
 
Probably Not said:
I think you could make a really good case that dafydd was posting the poetry for purposes of parody or criticism, both of which probably fall under fair use. But I doubt Ken was genuinely concerned that his material was being stolen. He was upset that it was being made fun of and lashing out a bit. The internet is srs business. :boxedin:
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I'm sorry about that,it was shooting fish in a barrel time,I couldn't resist it. Won't happen again.
 
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