My argument against materialism

Thank you for response.
punshhh said:
A mystic occupies him/herself primarily with the mysteries of reality/existence.
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And is at liberty to do so since his/her survival needs, such as food, clothing, etc,are met by others. On another forum (the GH which was the first I joined) there are posters who can produce screeds of what can only be called psycho-babble. They are so steeped in the search for some ultimate mystery that I think they lose sight of reality. They will not accept that their belief that, for instance, the Ancient Egyptians encoded all of modern physics and mathematics into the building of the pyramids, and that also there is still more mathematical knowledge of some previous alien, superior race waiting to be discovered. Okay, they have a free choice to spend their time on this, but an unblinkered view of reality, warts and all, is so much more rewarding in the end I think. And I used to read all that stuff. Fortunately, I always had a detached, hmmm, is this true? view of it all.
I have pointed out a mystery of existence and am surrounded by posters who deny there is one.
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Perhaps you should look at it again and consider dispassionately whether this mystery is really there?
the mystery is,"what is this stuff called energy, of which everything known to exist is constituted?"

The most I've got so far is a "we don't know".
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Even if this 'mystery' were to be solved, humans would dream up another 'what if' because we need such thoughts to keep us thinking!!
This is one of the most "concrete", easy to explain mysteries. How I'm going to point out some of the more profound mysteries, I don't know.
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I wonder if you are just chasing shadows? In any case, do keep your feet firmly on the ground!
 
yy2bggggs said:
£1.50 is not a number. 1.50 is a number. If you ask me how much money I have, and I tell you I have one point five, I have not given you an answer. I have to say one point five pound sterling.

But if I had that much money, I could also say I have 4 reais (let's say that's the exchange rate, since in the analogy there's a constant exchange rate). What I'm telling you isn't a number, but it's a quantity. It tells you how much I can buy.

Matter would be only one form, or set of forms, of currency.

But when physicists tell you that matter is energy, they are only telling you that you can buy things with it. You're still imagining that they are telling you what matter is made of.
Energy is a quantity. But it's not a number. It's more specific. It tells you exactly how much you can buy. 1.50 isn't an amount of energy. 1.50 pounds is (pun intended).
Yes. It doesn't matter what it is, as long as you can use it to buy things--say, a particular number of photons at a particular frequency. Energy isn't a kind of thing, it's an amount of currency.
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Yes I see this, so matter is a certain quantity of energy, like a purse. It retains/stores it and spends it in different currencies corresponding to different states of energy. The purse is energy arranged in a form like a receptacle (sphere/trajectory) and there are no solid things involved.

So the energy is expressed in waves presumably, like waves on the surface of water(as a two dimensional analogy). Or are you going to say waves on the surface of(out of) nothingness.

This sounds interesting, the whole thing could be a mirage.
 
dafydd said:
More obfustication. You have not pointed out any mystery. The only mystery is trying to work out what you are talking about. Please explain the easy to explain mystery. Energy is not stuff,this has been pointed out to you more than once. Are you talking about:
Light Energy
Kinetic Energy
Gravitational Potential Energy
Sound Energy
Electrical Energy
Chemical Energy
Heat Energy
Elastic Energy

Or are you using the word energy in it's meaningless occult sense?
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No, I wouldn't dare.

Fine all these states of energy, exist. In or through what medium are they expressed? You are not going to say waves in nothingness are you.
 
kenkoskinen said:
Benjayk this is ridiculous! The primary thing that exist in our universe is space/time, matter i.e. subatomic, atomic, molecular particles is way down the list. The perception of matter or anything else depends on consciousness. How did you get so screwed up?
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You have no idea:D

I suggest you follow the thread a while before getting involved, or you might experience a bumpy landing;)
 
laca said:
That's not a mystery. That's your ignorance speaking.



That is, for lack of a better word, a lie. I don't recall anyone replying to you that they don't know what energy is. On the other hand, I remember a direct and concise answer several times.



[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_322964d01248fb740d.jpg[/qimg]

ETA: Oh, and your usage of the quotation marks reminds me of Joey from Friends.
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No I'm not trolling.

I grapple with concepts like this all the time.

Now what was your explanation of what energy is again?

Let me rephrase the question, as we have moved on a bit;

What is energy?
or in or through what medium is its existence manifest.?
 
dlorde said:
This is simply untrue. You've been told what it is, what it does, some examples of it, that it isn't material 'stuff', and you've been given links to more detailed and complete explanations in case our summaries are insufficient for you. Not everything is 'stuff' - momentum isn't material 'stuff' either, but it can also be measured, and transferred, and is also conserved.

Ultimately, as Robin and others have told you repeatedly, we don't, and probably can't, know the underlying reality of anything, but we can describe and model how things behave, and the concept of energy is the result of that effort.

A mystery is something that is difficult to explain or understand.

That you are persistently and/or deliberately obtuse in failing to seriously consider or understand the explanations you've been given may mean it's a mystery to you, but your comprehensive failure of comprehension has no mysterious implications for anyone else.
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I have been given very good descriptions of what energy does and that it is not a substance.

If it is not a substance(atoms included), or material. How does it operate in a three dimensional space?
 
AlBell said:
per wiki:

The noumenon (from Gr. νοούμενoν, present participle of νοέω "I think, I mean"; plural: νοούμενα - noumena) is a posited object or event that is known (if at all) without the use of the senses.[1] Classically, the noumenal realm is the higher reality known to the philosophical mind.[2]
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I wonder if Pi is one of these?
 
PixyMisa said:
This is wrong in every respect. Materialism does address what energy is, and nothing else does.


Mysticism has no answers for anything. It doesn't even have meaningful questions.


Or meaningful statements of any kind.
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We have plenty of time for you to explain what energy is, please explain.

Thankyou for explaining what energy does, however I knew that before I asked the question.
 
punshhh said:
Yes I see this, so matter is a certain quantity of energy, like a purse.
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No. Just like a certain amount of money is not a purse. That's just stupid.

punshhh said:
It retains/stores it and spends it in different currencies corresponding to different states of energy.
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Are you trying to say with incredible difficulty that matter transforms due to energy loss/gain?

punshhh said:
The purse is energy arranged in a form like a receptacle (sphere/trajectory) and there are no solid things involved.
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Say what now? Is that your famous precise wording? "Receptacle (sphere/trajectory)"? What does that mean?

punshhh said:
This sounds interesting, the whole thing could be a mirage.
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Yes. Are you a solipsist as well? That would explain a few things.
 
punshhh said:
No I'm not trolling.

I grapple with concepts like this all the time.

Now what was your explanation of what energy is again?

Let me rephrase the question, as we have moved on a bit;

What is energy?
or in or through what medium is its existence manifest.?
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Syntax error. Compilation aborted.
 
laca said:
No. Just like a certain amount of money is not a purse. That's just stupid.



Are you trying to say with incredible difficulty that matter transforms due to energy loss/gain?



Say what now? Is that your famous precise wording? "Receptacle (sphere/trajectory)"? What does that mean?



Yes. Are you a solipsist as well? That would explain a few things.
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I am working within an analogy here, provided by another poster.

What is your analogy?
 
punshhh said:
I have been given very good descriptions of what energy does and that it is not a substance.

If it is not a substance(atoms included), or material. How does it operate in a three dimensional space?
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EnergyWP.
 
laca said:
Yes, and I pointed out that you failed.



Why would I need an analogy? I'm way past hoping you'll learn something from this. I'm just here for the fun.
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Thanks for the link, pixy had already posted it, just the behaviour of energy I'm afraid.

I'm here for the fun too, looks like I've amused you on occasion, I've seen some funny stuff too:)
 
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