My argument against materialism

punshhh said:
I would point out one of the mystical models I was thinking of earlier, which would have an interesting consequence with hilberts hotel.

I have mentioned this before in this thread;

Time and space may be illusory in nature and all "spaces" and "times" may be "present" in one point at the same "time".
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Space and time may be illusory - but I don't know why you call it a mystical model. There are conjectured physical models in which space and time are illusions, for want of a better word. Take string theorist David Gross for example:

That at some point, a much more drastic revolution or discontinuity in our system of beliefs will be required. And that this revolution will likely change the way we think about space and time, maybe even eliminate them completely as a basis for our description of reality—that is, leave us regarding them rather as emergent approximate concepts that are useful under certain circumstances.​

But I don't see how any such models would affect the Hilbert's Hotel thought experiment or the one about the infinitely long rod in an infinite universe since they are thought experiments about theoretical universes.
 
punshhh said:
A mystic occupies him/herself primarily with the mysteries of reality/existence.

I have pointed out a mystery of existence and am surrounded by posters who deny there is one.

the mystery is,"what is this stuff called energy, of which everything known to exist is constituted?"

The most I've got so far is a "we don't know".

This is one of the most "concrete", easy to explain mysteries. How I'm going to point out some of the more profound mysteries, I don't know.
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punshhh said:
Hence a mystery

Mysteries are unfathomable, not I or anyone else can provide an answer or truth which explains away a mystery.
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So are mysteries easy to explain or unexplainable?
 
per wiki:

The noumenon (from Gr. νοούμενoν, present participle of νοέω "I think, I mean"; plural: νοούμενα - noumena) is a posited object or event that is known (if at all) without the use of the senses.[1] Classically, the noumenal realm is the higher reality known to the philosophical mind.[2]
 
AlBell said:
per wiki:

The noumenon (from Gr. νοούμενoν, present participle of νοέω "I think, I mean"; plural: νοούμενα - noumena) is a posited object or event that is known (if at all) without the use of the senses.[1] Classically, the noumenal realm is the higher reality known to the philosophical mind.[2]
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So if I don't hear, see, feel, taste or smell something that something is a noumena? OMG they could be everywhere.
 
tsig said:
So are mysteries easy to explain or unexplainable?
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To be fair to punshhh he probably means in the first case that it is easy to explain what the mystery is rather than explain the mystery as in solve the mystery.
 
punshhh said:
I concede the point regarding philosophers, I cannot speak for them.

The point I was making in that reply to pixy was that while materialists may not address what energy is, there are other fields of study which do, or at least aught to.
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This is wrong in every respect. Materialism does address what energy is, and nothing else does.

If anyone is going to address it one would expect them to be in one of these disciplines.
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Mysticism has no answers for anything. It doesn't even have meaningful questions.

The hotel would be pretty crowded.
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Or meaningful statements of any kind.
 
AlBell said:
When you add 2+2 mentally do your lips move? Or do you "feel" it? :)
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This ain't "the force" we're dealing with here, and we've come a long way since Kant. Noumena's an idea that only labels what you don't know and cannot infer. That doesn't actually mean noumena (noumeni for plural) actually exist however.

When you add 2+2 your brain's working, the fact you say it is independent of the mental process. You saying "2+2 = 4" is a response from a completely different stimulus.
 
punshhh said:
Hence a mystery

Mysteries are unfathomable, not I or anyone else can provide an answer or truth which explains away a mystery.
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Please explain this mystery to us,you know,the one that you said was easy to explain.
 
dlorde said:
It's hard to tell, but if it isn't trolling, there's some other agenda. I too find it difficult to believe someone can be that persistently obtuse. People who honestly don't understand will usually know it and behave accordingly. This has been continuing for so long, and so consistently, it smacks of deliberation. As I said several pages ago, I think he's taking the piss - if it was just an occasional misunderstanding or misinterpretation, Dunning-Kruger would cover it, but this goes beyond that.
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I think that punshhh is extracting the urine. If he really is this obtuse he would not remember how to breathe.
 
Belz... said:
Reading comprehension fail, again. Of COURSE you are in the real world, but unless by "science can answer the question 'do you love your children ?'" you mean "science can pry inside your brain and detect the changes to your chemistry when asked the question", then "do you love your children" is not a scientific question.

You don't choose the colour of your car with science. You choose it based on preference. Science doesn't deal with that kind of stuff, unless you want to go into pointless detail/derail, but it IS the only tool we have for determining the workings of the universe.

Patting yourself on the back with condescension for other posters may be fun, but it does make you look like a douchebag to just about everybody else.
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Edited by jhunter1163: 
Edited for civility.
 
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Do we now have to check our brains in at the door when we enter this thread?
 
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Reported.

Annnoid, you need to clear your head and get back on topic.

Now that you've vented, will you tackle Belz's point about love, brain chemistry and science?
 
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Robin said:
To be fair to punshhh he probably means in the first case that it is easy to explain what the mystery is rather than explain the mystery as in solve the mystery.
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Thankyou Robin,

I am very precise in my wording, to explain a mystery is to explain what a mystery is. To explain away a mystery is to explain that it is not mysterious.

I would not attempt to explain why a mystery is not mysterious.

There are posters here who may yet explain what energy is, or claim to.
Lets wait and see what their answer is.
 
Robin said:
Space and time may be illusory - but I don't know why you call it a mystical model. There are conjectured physical models in which space and time are illusions, for want of a better word. Take string theorist David Gross for example:

That at some point, a much more drastic revolution or discontinuity in our system of beliefs will be required. And that this revolution will likely change the way we think about space and time, maybe even eliminate them completely as a basis for our description of reality—that is, leave us regarding them rather as emergent approximate concepts that are useful under certain circumstances.​

But I don't see how any such models would affect the Hilbert's Hotel thought experiment or the one about the infinitely long rod in an infinite universe since they are thought experiments about theoretical universes.
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Yes such a model would not affect theoretical universes, unless they are attempting to closely relate to the known universe.

Thankyou for this reference, David Gross has pointed out a possibility which can open the way to some of the deeper mysteries.
 
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