My argument against materialism

[Dancing David]

But you just admitted there are NO KNOWN infinite quantities. Please answer my question: WHY DO YOU NEED to adress something that doesn't exist ?



Why ?

There are infinite quantities, as when two particles of like charge approach, the repulsion has the limit of infinity as the distance decreases.

 

[Dancing David]

Evidence on the 'surface'.

Burden of proof, what evidence is there that you are not finite?

'Hiding' behind 'words' like 'surface' is not 'helpful'.

 

[Nonpareil]

There are infinite quantities, as when two particles of like charge approach, the repulsion has the limit of infinity as the distance decreases.

I have to back Belz... up on this. Having the limit of infinity is not the same as actually being equal to infinity.

ETA: Of course, I'm not a physicist, and I've heard weirder things. So if anybody wants to correct me on this, feel free.

 

[Robin]

Regarding pi, I see your point, I have at no time claimed that this creator would exercise its omnipotent power, thus pi would not be or need to be changed.

That is an interesting answer. Forgive me for saying it sounds a bit like an evasion.

Whether or not pi needs to be changed - do you think it could?

 

[Belz...]

There are infinite quantities, as when two particles of like charge approach, the repulsion has the limit of infinity as the distance decreases.

It approaches infinity, but it has a finite value.

 

[Dancing David]

I have to back Belz... up on this. Having the limit of infinity is not the same as actually being equal to infinity.

ETA: Of course, I'm not a physicist, and I've heard weirder things. So if anybody wants to correct me on this, feel free.

It is an example of infinity, that is all it is meant to be. This is taken very seriously in the fusion of the sun where the Coloumb force would keep protons from fusing no matter the temperature and pressure. So no shine to sun shine.

Enter QM where the probability of a proton being next to another proton allows for the fusion to occur.

 

[Dancing David]

It approaches infinity, but it has a finite value.

Please explain, I don't understand? Is this measured? Sorry I am ignorant on that. The charge has a finite value, but the repulsive force?

I don't know.

 

[punshhh]

I have to back Belz... up on this. Having the limit of infinity is not the same as actually being equal to infinity.

ETA: Of course, I'm not a physicist, and I've heard weirder things. So if anybody wants to correct me on this, feel free.

When I started asking questions about infinity in this thread, I felt it best to consider only 'physical' infinities, as any other kind would probably result in a difficulty in communication.

Physical infinities are if they exist actually infinite.

 

[laca]

I was pursuing a line of argument with Pixy about math and logic already, I would like to continue, while also discussing something with Robin.
Sounds reasonable to me.

Admitting to one poster that your point was invalid and not serious while continuing on the same line with another poster is hardly reasonable.

 

[punshhh]

Burden of proof, what evidence is there that you are not finite?

'Hiding' behind 'words' like 'surface' is not 'helpful'.

Unfortunately I don't have evidence, only theory.

I don't have time to explain my theory right now, rest assured I will post it at sometime soon in this thread, feel free to remind me if I fail to.

Lack of evidence, reveals nothing regarding the truth of the matter.

 

[PixyMisa]

I wouldn't, I was asking you if light can exist without photons.

And I'm asking you why you would call it light.

From the observation that logic and math exist only in the minds of humans here.

What does that mean?

If I have one pebble, and add another pebble, how many pebbles are there?

If I then die, how many pebbles are there?

If everyone dies, how many pebbles are there?

You posed this question not me

The point is, the question has no meaning. It's self-contradictory.

Is there evidence of gravitrons?

Do you exist?

If so, yes.

how do they operate is it like light which moves through a vacuum?

I don't know much about how they behave quantum-mechanically - in fact, no-one does. We don't yet have a single cohesive theory of quantum gravity.

Viewed as particles, they move through space at the speed of light.

Does gravity operate at the speed of light so as not to invalidate GR, or is there evidence of this?

That's kind of backwards. Gravity doesn't care about General Relativity; General Relativity is a description of how the Universe works. The speed of light in General Relativity is the speed of all massless particles, not just photons specifically. If gravity propagated faster or slower than the speed of light, things would get weird.

You might want to check Wikipedia - it has a page specifically on this question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_gravity. I'm going on my relativity and QM classes from two decades ago and the bits and pieces I've read since, so my knowledge is not entirely up to date on this one.

 

[punshhh]

But you just admitted there are NO KNOWN infinite quantities. Please answer my question: WHY DO YOU NEED to adress something that doesn't exist ?



Why ?

I posted this yesterday;

Why can't I accept that anything finite can actually exist?

Well I see no difference between a space-time bubble(the known universe) and any other finite form, say a banana.

They are both finite, if finite, presumably they have a beginning and an end, both spatially and temporally(I am viewing the space time bubble from outside the bubble(subjectively)).

Or do they not have a beginning or end?

Now lets consider for sake of argument that nothing exists, there is no existence of anything. Fine no paradox, but I have evidence that something does exist, I am holding a banana in my hand.

How did that banana arise?

Could it have popped out of a state of total non existence of anything?

Or does it have no beginning or end?

This is the paradox I see, I can see no solution without a physical infinity forming part of the equation.

 

[punshhh]

That is an interesting answer. Forgive me for saying it sounds a bit like an evasion.

Whether or not pi needs to be changed - do you think it could?

Only potentially, not in any finite material form.

 

[PixyMisa]

No not thought universes, It is probably not worth fishing those out in this thread, we'll see.

I was fishing in Pixy's mind.

There are no fish in there! I checked!

 

[PixyMisa]

If the answer to point '1' is no, what alternative cenario do you have in mind.

Mathematics and logic are abstract. They don't exist.

As soon as you start trying to talk about the existence of abstract notions, you've messed up. The term does not apply.

 

[laca]

Please explain, I don't understand? Is this measured? Sorry I am ignorant on that. The charge has a finite value, but the repulsive force?

I don't know.

In order for the "repulsive force" to reach infinity, the distance would have to be 0, which would require infinite energy, so it's impossible. IANAP...

 

[laca]

Only potentially, not in any finite material form.

Sorry, but that's gibberish.

 

[punshhh]

Mathematics and logic are abstract. They don't exist.

As soon as you start trying to talk about the existence of abstract notions, you've messed up. The term does not apply.

So math and logic don't exist, how do they manifest in the known universe and a notional universe as you said?

I have evidence for their presence

Or are they illusory?

 

[punshhh]

Sorry, but that's gibberish.

If its gibberish I suggest you ignore it.

 

[marplots]

Well good! That's actually my major point here--that there are nuances aplenty, and we need to be careful before we make strong claims or conclusions based on experiments. What we need to do is take inventory, so to speak. Create maps. Figure out where we are; figure out what things are involved, what the things that are involved actually are, and so on.

Good post; much for me to think about now. Thank you.