My anecdotal claims

Limbo said:
Who cares what way I am asserting it. If the skepticism movement has a problem with the way I assert myself then it needs to stop worrying about the speck in my eye and start worrying about the plank in its eye.
Click to expand...

Give us some evidence that will help to remove this alleged plank instead of telling us silly stories couched in 1960's hippie talk.
 
Sideroxylon said:
Limbo, if you were wrong about all this, how would you know?
Click to expand...


Wrong about all? Inconceivable!

Wrong about some minor details? Conceivable!

Sideroxylon, same question back at you bub.
 
Last edited:
Limbo said:
Wrong about all? Inconceivable!

Wrong about some minor details? Conceivable!
Click to expand...

So far you haven't provided any evidence you're correct about anything. Not a sniff, a whit, a scosh.

So there's that.
 
Mysticism seems to be about epiphany by contradiction.

The goal is for you (but not you) to reach the state of direct experience.
The road is to confound your mind by inverts and denials. Like: there is no goal, no road. I am on the road. There is no I. When you meet the Buddah on the road, kill him. And so on.
This stuff is said (help, thought, supposed) to bring on some mystical orgasm.

You can't bring anything back from there because that's defined right out of the deal. The Tao you can see is not the Tao. It's tricksy Scotsmen all the way down.

Given that it all relies on implication and deliberate confundity (confound + profound) it's no wonder there's no standard language to it all. There is no science possible without a basis for observation and a way to talk about it. All we get is the sewage of woo polished onto the turd of ancient rumours.

I think the essential experience that is hinted at will be gradually understood by neuroscience and one day, let us hope, we will have the language to understand what people like Limbo are claiming.
 
Limbo said:
Wrong about all? Inconceivable!

Wrong about some minor details? Conceivable!

Sideroxylon, same question back at you bub.
Click to expand...

Wrong about the existence of UFOs and PSI? It will not be for ignoring evidence.

What I was getting at is that you seem to sidestep possible falsifying evidence of things like PSI. I am referring to your earlier mention of the "trickster effect". Don't you see the problem with taking such a position?
 
Limbo said:
Who cares what way I am asserting it. This is the internet. Not a spring-time tea party. If the skepticism movement has a problem with the way I assert myself then it needs to stop worrying about the speck in my eye and start worrying about the plank in its eye.
Click to expand...
The only thing I can think of that you may be referring to by the plank in the skeptics eye is the fact that skeptics have a higher standard of belief than you do. Is that what you're referring to?
 
Hokulele said:
Once again with feeling.

Koans. Aren't. Riddles.

The only people who claim they are are those have read about Zen Buddhism, but never practiced it themselves.

ETA: Limbo must have me on ignore.
Click to expand...

I have just re-read my copy of Zen Flesh, Zen Bones by Alan Watts. Koans are not riddles. Limbo does not appear to know what Zen is.
 
Hokulele said:
Once again with feeling.

Koans. Aren't. Riddles.

The only people who claim they are are those who have read about Zen Buddhism, but never practiced it themselves.
Click to expand...
Yes, exactly right. A good riddle is specifically designed to be solved by logic. A koan is specifically designed to get beyond logic, though I can't for the life of me remember why.


ETA: Limbo must have me on ignore.
Click to expand...
Seems that way for me too, though I don't recall ever being rude or nasty to him. I regularly see him respond to posters who have been much more abrasive than I have ever been, so I'm guessing its because he likes the drama.
 
The Norseman said:
Yes, exactly right. A good riddle is specifically designed to be solved by logic. A koan is specifically designed to get beyond logic, though I can't for the life of me remember why.
Click to expand...

They are supposed to short circuit the thought processes so that one can achieve satori. Pure bilge, of course.
 
dafydd said:
They are supposed to short circuit the thought processes so that one can achieve satori. Pure bilge, of course.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your prompt information regarding 'poppycock' and satori.

Which, now that I think on it, is redundant.
 
dafydd said:
They are supposed to short circuit the thought processes so that one can achieve satori. Pure bilge, of course.
Click to expand...


Well, yes and no.

Zen Buddhism at its heart is a fairly pragmatic religion, but the mystical types just can't leave well enough alone. Since this is a thread about anecdotes, here is mine. :D

I practiced Zen Buddhism for a while, even attended what you might call "church services" in Japan, and found certain elements of it to be useful. For example, koan meditation using breath control really does have a practical application, such as dealing with traffic jams.

I live in California, and often have to work in the Los Angeles area. This means I often have to deal with the traffic nightmare that is the 405 freeway. A koan isn't a riddle, but something to be used as the starting point for reaching satori. The question about clapping that Limbo incorrectly posed (the classical koan isn't just the question, but includes an introductory statement) is a koan, the 405 freeway is a koan, a Charlie Parker solo is a koan. They are all just a starting place you can use for your meditation that will allow you to reach satori. Satori is usually described as a state of enlightenment, but as dafydd noted, it really is just the state of not actively thinking ("short circuit the thought processes").

So the way this works for me, is I will start off being frustrated and annoyed by the traffic, I will then use the traffic as a starting point for my meditation, which allows me to stop thinking about the traffic. Simple! I am no longer frustrated and annoyed by the traffic, because I am no longer thinking about it. It really is only a basic distraction technique, no "altered states of consciousness" are required.

The breath control bit is simply another layer of the process that gets me calm quicker. Breath control meditation as been shown to lower blood pressure, heart rate, and all that good stuff. But again, it is simple biology, nothing special.

The point where I get annoyed with the mystics over all this, it that while I certainly feel better about being stuck in traffic, it doesn't solve the problem. It simply allows me to ignore or accept it. Even if you manage to convince the entire LA basin to practice Zen meditation (the ultimate mystical goal!), you just have 10 million people ignoring a problem. Give me a decent transportation engineer and an unlimited budget, and I will guarantee you that science can solve the problem. However, an unlimited budget is unlikely, so the best that one can conclude from mysticism is that it is always cheaper to ignore a problem than to fix it.

Pure wisdom indeed.
 
Hokulele said:
Well, yes and no.

Zen Buddhism at its heart is a fairly pragmatic religion, but the mystical types just can't leave well enough alone. Since this is a thread about anecdotes, here is mine. :D

I practiced Zen Buddhism for a while, even attended what you might call "church services" in Japan, and found certain elements of it to be useful. For example, koan meditation using breath control really does have a practical application, such as dealing with traffic jams.

I live in California, and often have to work in the Los Angeles area. This means I often have to deal with the traffic nightmare that is the 405 freeway. A koan isn't a riddle, but something to be used as the starting point for reaching satori. The question about clapping that Limbo incorrectly posed (the classical koan isn't just the question, but includes an introductory statement) is a koan, the 405 freeway is a koan, a Charlie Parker solo is a koan. They are all just a starting place you can use for your meditation that will allow you to reach satori. Satori is usually described as a state of enlightenment, but as dafydd noted, it really is just the state of not actively thinking ("short circuit the thought processes").

So the way this works for me, is I will start off being frustrated and annoyed by the traffic, I will then use the traffic as a starting point for my meditation, which allows me to stop thinking about the traffic. Simple! I am no longer frustrated and annoyed by the traffic, because I am no longer thinking about it. It really is only a basic distraction technique, no "altered states of consciousness" are required.

The breath control bit is simply another layer of the process that gets me calm quicker. Breath control meditation as been shown to lower blood pressure, heart rate, and all that good stuff. But again, it is simple biology, nothing special.

The point where I get annoyed with the mystics over all this, it that while I certainly feel better about being stuck in traffic, it doesn't solve the problem. It simply allows me to ignore or accept it. Even if you manage to convince the entire LA basin to practice Zen meditation (the ultimate mystical goal!), you just have 10 million people ignoring a problem. Give me a decent transportation engineer and an unlimited budget, and I will guarantee you that science can solve the problem. However, an unlimited budget is unlikely, so the best that one can conclude from mysticism is that it is always cheaper to ignore a problem than to fix it.

Pure wisdom indeed.
Click to expand...
Very well put. Limbo should take a leaf out of your book, he seems incapable of explaining anything.
 
dafydd said:
Very well put. Limbo should take a leaf out of your book, he seems incapable of explaining anything.
Click to expand...

If I had to guess, his response will be something along the lines of "you're doing it wrong."
 
Momma said.... 70 years ago...
"What can't be cured
must be endured".
Has always worked for me.
 
I Ratant said:
Momma said.... 70 years ago...
"What can't be cured
must be endured".
Has always worked for me.
Click to expand...

I like that song

In the morning when I cannot see you,
My heart lies bleeding for you all day,
For in the evening I can't come near you
For them that's bound they must obey.
Youth and folly makes young men marry
And here no longer can I stay,
What can't be cured must be endured,
So farewell darling I must away.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom