Cont: Musk buys Twitter II

dirtywick said:
why do a bunch of white nationalists care about musk at all? he’s thrown in with the right in pursuit of his stock deal, in exchange he amplifies their fascist views and supports their political agenda, and brazil crossed him so now the right must concern itself with brazil. free speech is all just a pretense to it.

they’ll lie right to your face.
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It's quite astonishing that in about a generation liberals have ceded "free speech and expression" to be a uniquely right-wing value. What the hell happened.
 
Trausti said:
It's quite astonishing that in about a generation liberals have ceded "free speech and expression" to be a uniquely right-wing value. What the hell happened.
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Hmm? Ceded? By the look of it, it's actually that the far right is pushing a caricature of free speech as part of their various moves that undermine actual free speech as they try to gain some advantage or other. Then, when their caricature is called out for being what it is, what you just did is a next step. You may, in fact, fool yourself. You have motivation to do so, after all. That doesn't mean that others need to buy what you're trying to sell, though.

Going a bit further, the merit of promoting free speech lies in the beneficial effects that it has on a society. When there are concerted efforts to subvert free speech to harm society, that unfortunately means that there's then good cause to try to limit the harm.
 
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Aridas said:
Hmm? Ceded? By the look of it, it's actually that the far right is pushing a caricature of free speech as part of their various moves that undermine actual free speech as they try to gain some advantage or other.

Going a bit further, the merit of promoting free speech lies in the beneficial effects that it has on a society. When there are concerted efforts to subvert free speech to harm society, that unfortunately means that there's then good cause to try to limit the harm.
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So to you the only approprate "free speech" is that approved by the government. "Free speech" so long as Aridas has pre-cleared that speech.
Reminds me of this.

 
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a_unique_person said:
You always know how to get what "the left" thinks wrong.

Elon doesn't believe in free speech.
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He must believe in free speech as he's taken quite a financial hit to support it. Or by "free speech" do you mean by not censoring speech you don't like?
 
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a_unique_person said:
He must hate free speech because he's running X the way he thinks it should be run and censoring ideas he doesn't like.
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Who is he censoring? He's endorsed Trump yet lets Biden and Harris and AOC et al use the platform and say what they want. Robert Reich just authored a piece advocating that Musk be arrested. Yet, he's still allowed to post on the site. If Musk is censoring ideas he doesn't like, he's doing a poor job of it.
 
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Trausti said:
So to you the only approprate "free speech" is that approved by the government. "Free speech" so long as Aridas has pre-cleared that speech.
Reminds me of this.
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Mmm. You're still trying to work with caricatures. No surprise there.

Trausti said:
He must believe in free speech as he's taken quite a financial hit to support it.
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That's a weird justification attempt.

Going by the actual evidence, it looks much more like Musk is in favor of controlled speech. Specifically, controlled by him. He's taken a financial hit, sure, but the situation shows plenty well that "believing in free speech" has little to nothing to do with that.

Trausti said:
Or by "free speech" do you mean by not censoring speech you don't like?
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Also, once again, one of those pesky facts that you seem intent on ignoring is that X DOES CENSOR SPEECH! Massive numbers of accounts get punished or banned for saying various things. So long as you refuse to even acknowledge basic facts, your arguments invite little more than mockery. There are nuances of note that come into play on further evaluations of such, certainly, but that only happens after acknowledging that it's happening.
 
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Aridas said:
Also, once again, one of those pesky facts that you seem intent on ignoring is that X DOES CENSOR SPEECH! Massive numbers of accounts get punished or banned for saying various things.
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Do you mean all the child sexual abuse accounts that existed prior to his ownership he suspended? Oh noes!
 
Trausti said:
Do you mean all the child sexual abuse accounts that existed prior to his ownership he suspended? Oh noes!
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Those are some, but the way you're phrasing that makes it sound like you are under a strange impression that it's only ones carried over from before! Also, you seem to imply his structural changes to Twitter made the overall handling of such better somehow, which rather seems to be roughly the opposite of the truth.

There are a lot of other similar reasons for censorship that are normally considered quite justified and reasonable, too, incidentally! Terrorism stuff is an obvious one. As it so happens, that's honestly not especially far in concept from the Brazilian attempted violent coup stuff that Musk seems to have chosen to try to protect.

With that noted, though, there are also things like... his "cis" suspensions policy, stunts like how he chose to effectively hand moderation decisions over to a bunch of very... politically motivated right wing people, and directly stated his intention to personally get involved in banning left wing accounts. All those are examples of things that directly undermine or refute the narrative you're trying to sell here. Adding in his anti-free speech lawsuits and actions to remove transparency just make things worse for that narrative.
 
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Aridas said:
Those are some, but the way you're phrasing that makes it sound like you are under a strange impression that it's only ones carried over from before! Also, you seem to imply his structural changes to Twitter made the overall handling of such better somehow, which rather seems to be roughly the opposite of the truth.

There are a lot of other similar reasons for censorship that are normally considered quite justified and reasonable, too, incidentally! Terrorism stuff is an obvious one. As it so happens, that's honestly not especially far in concept from the Brazilian attempted violent coup stuff that Musk seems to have chosen to try to protect.

With that noted, though, there are also things like... his "cis" suspensions policy, stunts like how he chose to effectively hand moderation decisions over to a bunch of very... politically motivated right wing people, and directly stated his intention to personally get involved in banning left wing accounts. All those are examples of things that directly undermine or refute the narrative you're trying to sell here. Adding in his anti-free speech lawsuits and actions to remove transparency just make things worse for that narrative.
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Hang on. Before we go any further. Do you support free speech? Not speech that you like or aligns with your narrative. Speech you don't like by people you intensly (perhaps) detest. Do you think it was wrong for pre-Musk Twitter to suspend right-leaning/conservative accounts? Wrong to ban the Hunter Biden laptop story? There's no way to verify if you're consistent, of course, but clearly Musk Twitter is much freer than before he bought it.
 
a_unique_person said:
You do approve of censorship. Fact.
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Holy ****. You're defending child abuse material? I'd have thought that's one topic where there's universal agreement that child explotation is not speech. You scare me, dude.

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Trausti said:
Holy ****. You're defending child abuse material? I'd have thought that's one topic where there's universal agreement that child explotation is not speech. You scare me, dude.
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he is pointing out your ideological blinkers.

you do advocate for the testing of "Free Speech" for inappropriate content.
Once you do that, its not longer a question of:

Free Speech yes/no ? (the answer is no),
but
Appropriate Speech yes/no ?

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Edited for rule 10 in quote
 
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